How cann I diy an intercooler spray?

User avatar
ruan9n
Post Whore
Posts: 31984
Joined: Sun Jul 22, 2007 11:02 am
Car Make: VW
Car Model: Scirocco 2.0TSI dsg
Membership No: 1343
Location: PRETORIA
Contact:

How cann I diy an intercooler spray?

Postby ruan9n » Mon Jan 26, 2009 8:08 am

I have an idea of sort of running waterpiping from the window washer bottle to nozzles at the front of my FMIC, to spray on as to lessen heatsoak or cool the charge even more!
How would I do this though?
Candy white Scirocco 2.0TSI DSG StormtrooperXL 195kw 456nm @ stealth
Revo stage 2, Revo 76mm dp, Revo throttle pipe, APR 1&2 Carbonio intake, Neuspeed hiflow discharge pipe, H&R springs, 19" RS3 wheels, R8 coils, Iridiums, BSH dogbone insert, TTRS lca's, R interior.

Image

Ex: Golf 6 GTI aka "pepper" 252hp 420nm
Ex: Golf 5 GTI aka "stormtrooper" 190kw 390nm
Ex: 9n Polo TDI sportline "The cupra polo" 125kw 430nm
Ex: Some other polos

User avatar
Polo05
Lieutenant
Posts: 1777
Joined: Wed Jul 12, 2006 3:05 pm
Membership No: 1271
Contact:

Re: How cann I diy an intercooler spray?

Postby Polo05 » Mon Jan 26, 2009 9:00 am

Speak to G5 GP aka Mo, AFAIK, he has this setup on his V GTI.
Current
2015 MK 7 .:R
1990 MK1 Cabriolet
Ex:
2005 Polo Hatch
1984 MK1 GX - Bagged
2013 MK 7 GTI DSG
Golf 4 V6 4motion
1982 Mk1 GTS
2007 Golf 5 GTI - K04

User avatar
ruan9n
Post Whore
Posts: 31984
Joined: Sun Jul 22, 2007 11:02 am
Car Make: VW
Car Model: Scirocco 2.0TSI dsg
Membership No: 1343
Location: PRETORIA
Contact:

Re: How cann I diy an intercooler spray?

Postby ruan9n » Mon Jan 26, 2009 10:49 am

What I want to do is SIMILAR to WMI but just not in the outlet boostpipe! Just sort of a system that sprays water onto the cooler itself! Something with 3 jets should suffice! Had a few hard runs last night and I mean shifting at 4k rpm in a tdi :o
Bought a bottle of valpre still for my cooler and just chucked it over it! Steam on the inlet side coz it gets lekker hot!!!
Candy white Scirocco 2.0TSI DSG StormtrooperXL 195kw 456nm @ stealth
Revo stage 2, Revo 76mm dp, Revo throttle pipe, APR 1&2 Carbonio intake, Neuspeed hiflow discharge pipe, H&R springs, 19" RS3 wheels, R8 coils, Iridiums, BSH dogbone insert, TTRS lca's, R interior.

Image

Ex: Golf 6 GTI aka "pepper" 252hp 420nm
Ex: Golf 5 GTI aka "stormtrooper" 190kw 390nm
Ex: 9n Polo TDI sportline "The cupra polo" 125kw 430nm
Ex: Some other polos

User avatar
JVR
Cadet
Posts: 897
Joined: Thu Dec 04, 2008 1:55 pm
Location: Randburg
Contact:

Re: How cann I diy an intercooler spray?

Postby JVR » Mon Jan 26, 2009 12:06 pm

I believe you can fit 6 irregation type sprayers, 3 at the top and three at the bottom. Then either fit a second water tank and pump or use the current setup with a valve. If you like i should be able to design you a module that will automatically spray when the charge temp exceds xx'C.
'10 Tiguan 2.0TDI
'00 A3 1.8T

User avatar
Titus
Captain
Posts: 2664
Joined: Sun Sep 30, 2007 12:47 pm
Car Make: VW
Car Model: MK7 GTI
Membership No: 1189
Location: Joburg
Contact:

Re: How cann I diy an intercooler spray?

Postby Titus » Mon Jan 26, 2009 7:42 pm

JVRDesign wrote:I believe you can fit 6 irregation type sprayers, 3 at the top and three at the bottom. Then either fit a second water tank and pump or use the current setup with a valve. If you like i should be able to design you a module that will automatically spray when the charge temp exceds xx'C.


Oi!, well then what you still doing here.. get cracking and make one :lol:
certainly does a help a bit, particularly on these hot days when my boost goes for a ball of crud :|
i would certainly be interested in one
Current: LSG MK7 GTI DSG

x: Audi A4 B7 1.8T
X:'08 Golf 5 GTI - White Rush
'05 Polo 1.9 TDI Sportline - Blue Boost
'05 Velociti 1.4i
There is a replacement for displacement, its called compressed air :evil:

User avatar
JVR
Cadet
Posts: 897
Joined: Thu Dec 04, 2008 1:55 pm
Location: Randburg
Contact:

Re: How cann I diy an intercooler spray?

Postby JVR » Tue Jan 27, 2009 8:03 am

Give me the temp specs and such where you would like it to operate and i can do it no problem...
'10 Tiguan 2.0TDI
'00 A3 1.8T

yosh
Dark Artz
Posts: 855
Joined: Sat Apr 19, 2008 7:37 pm
Car Make: SEAT
Car Model: Ibiza CUPRA
Membership No: missing
Contact:

Re: How cann I diy an intercooler spray?

Postby yosh » Tue Jan 27, 2009 11:03 am

Turbo Toys in boksburg has an IC sprayer for approx R300 and you simply connect your pump or washer piping to it and you are sorted...011-894-8080 or Bruce 082-659-7848
UNITRONIC Stage3 Ibiza CUPRA
Image
WELCOME TO THE DARK SIDE
[email protected]
0790230345

User avatar
ruan9n
Post Whore
Posts: 31984
Joined: Sun Jul 22, 2007 11:02 am
Car Make: VW
Car Model: Scirocco 2.0TSI dsg
Membership No: 1343
Location: PRETORIA
Contact:

Re: How cann I diy an intercooler spray?

Postby ruan9n » Tue Jan 27, 2009 11:15 am

yosh wrote:Turbo Toys in boksburg has an IC sprayer for approx R300 and you simply connect your pump or washer piping to it and you are sorted...011-894-8080 or Bruce 082-659-7848


Thanks a lot for this!!!!!! :twisted:
Candy white Scirocco 2.0TSI DSG StormtrooperXL 195kw 456nm @ stealth
Revo stage 2, Revo 76mm dp, Revo throttle pipe, APR 1&2 Carbonio intake, Neuspeed hiflow discharge pipe, H&R springs, 19" RS3 wheels, R8 coils, Iridiums, BSH dogbone insert, TTRS lca's, R interior.

Image

Ex: Golf 6 GTI aka "pepper" 252hp 420nm
Ex: Golf 5 GTI aka "stormtrooper" 190kw 390nm
Ex: 9n Polo TDI sportline "The cupra polo" 125kw 430nm
Ex: Some other polos

User avatar
Stry
Lieutenant
Posts: 1237
Joined: Fri Jul 23, 2004 2:35 am
Location: Centurion
Contact:

Re: How cann I diy an intercooler spray?

Postby Stry » Tue Jan 27, 2009 11:24 am

Why not simply mount 2 X bike fans on the inside (if there is any space).
They are very slim and dirt cheap. Simple switch or temp sensor should be able to switch them on and off even before you reach temp where you require water.

Foxter's dad has a similar setup on his Musso running a Merc Kompressor motor. Seems to work well....

PS. Bike Hospital sell those fan at +- R200 each. Look at the Suzuki TL fans. They are nice and thin.

Stry
Renier Strydom

Ex:
Yamaha DT125
Honda VFR 400 NC 30
Puzey XTR250 LC2
BMW GS650 Dakar (aka Rommel)

VW Golf II GTi
VW Polo Playa
VW Caddy (aka Rusty)
Honda Accord Type S (aka Hamster)
Honda Jazz

Current:
Honda CRV
Honda S2000 (aka Moomin)

Honda VTR SP1 (aka Rooies)
BMW R1200GS Adventure (aka Goebbels)

User avatar
ruan9n
Post Whore
Posts: 31984
Joined: Sun Jul 22, 2007 11:02 am
Car Make: VW
Car Model: Scirocco 2.0TSI dsg
Membership No: 1343
Location: PRETORIA
Contact:

Re: How cann I diy an intercooler spray?

Postby ruan9n » Tue Jan 27, 2009 11:27 am

Thanx man but I think water spray on the cooler is the best option. Spraying the water onto the front of the cooler whilst driving, pushing the water through the cooler thus cooling the cooler itself and the charge even more!
Candy white Scirocco 2.0TSI DSG StormtrooperXL 195kw 456nm @ stealth
Revo stage 2, Revo 76mm dp, Revo throttle pipe, APR 1&2 Carbonio intake, Neuspeed hiflow discharge pipe, H&R springs, 19" RS3 wheels, R8 coils, Iridiums, BSH dogbone insert, TTRS lca's, R interior.

Image

Ex: Golf 6 GTI aka "pepper" 252hp 420nm
Ex: Golf 5 GTI aka "stormtrooper" 190kw 390nm
Ex: 9n Polo TDI sportline "The cupra polo" 125kw 430nm
Ex: Some other polos

User avatar
vitchie
Cadet
Posts: 776
Joined: Mon Aug 11, 2008 11:00 am
Car Make: Audi
Car Model: 11' Ibis White A4 2.0T
Membership No: 1317
Location: Randburg, JHB
Contact:

Re: How cann I diy an intercooler spray?

Postby vitchie » Tue Jan 27, 2009 11:39 am

I agree water will have a better effect, especially when the mist is fine enought so that it evaporates as soon as it hits the cooler, that will cool it down significantly becuase of heat transfer that goes along with the phase transition
2011 Ibis White A4 2.0T /Xenon/Bluetooth/ - R.I.P.

User avatar
ruan9n
Post Whore
Posts: 31984
Joined: Sun Jul 22, 2007 11:02 am
Car Make: VW
Car Model: Scirocco 2.0TSI dsg
Membership No: 1343
Location: PRETORIA
Contact:

Re: How cann I diy an intercooler spray?

Postby ruan9n » Tue Jan 27, 2009 11:46 am

Vitchie- will a mist have an overall better effect than lets say just spraying it wet?
Candy white Scirocco 2.0TSI DSG StormtrooperXL 195kw 456nm @ stealth
Revo stage 2, Revo 76mm dp, Revo throttle pipe, APR 1&2 Carbonio intake, Neuspeed hiflow discharge pipe, H&R springs, 19" RS3 wheels, R8 coils, Iridiums, BSH dogbone insert, TTRS lca's, R interior.

Image

Ex: Golf 6 GTI aka "pepper" 252hp 420nm
Ex: Golf 5 GTI aka "stormtrooper" 190kw 390nm
Ex: 9n Polo TDI sportline "The cupra polo" 125kw 430nm
Ex: Some other polos

User avatar
vitchie
Cadet
Posts: 776
Joined: Mon Aug 11, 2008 11:00 am
Car Make: Audi
Car Model: 11' Ibis White A4 2.0T
Membership No: 1317
Location: Randburg, JHB
Contact:

Re: How cann I diy an intercooler spray?

Postby vitchie » Tue Jan 27, 2009 11:58 am

I'm no expert, but yes I think so. I read it somewhere but can't remember where now. It has something to do with the cooling effect a liquid has when it changes to gas. Thermophysics...
2011 Ibis White A4 2.0T /Xenon/Bluetooth/ - R.I.P.

User avatar
ruan9n
Post Whore
Posts: 31984
Joined: Sun Jul 22, 2007 11:02 am
Car Make: VW
Car Model: Scirocco 2.0TSI dsg
Membership No: 1343
Location: PRETORIA
Contact:

Re: How cann I diy an intercooler spray?

Postby ruan9n » Tue Jan 27, 2009 12:05 pm

:idea: aaahhhh I see! Liquid could/would warm up on the already hot fmic BUT a mist is a gas and wont :idea:
Candy white Scirocco 2.0TSI DSG StormtrooperXL 195kw 456nm @ stealth
Revo stage 2, Revo 76mm dp, Revo throttle pipe, APR 1&2 Carbonio intake, Neuspeed hiflow discharge pipe, H&R springs, 19" RS3 wheels, R8 coils, Iridiums, BSH dogbone insert, TTRS lca's, R interior.

Image

Ex: Golf 6 GTI aka "pepper" 252hp 420nm
Ex: Golf 5 GTI aka "stormtrooper" 190kw 390nm
Ex: 9n Polo TDI sportline "The cupra polo" 125kw 430nm
Ex: Some other polos

1.6carbster
Colonel
Posts: 5354
Joined: Sun Mar 26, 2006 10:02 pm
Car Make: BMW
Car Model: 330i (E90)
Membership No: missing
Location: Pretoria east
Contact:

Re: How cann I diy an intercooler spray?

Postby 1.6carbster » Tue Jan 27, 2009 12:24 pm

Stry wrote:Why not simply mount 2 X bike fans on the inside (if there is any space).
They are very slim and dirt cheap. Simple switch or temp sensor should be able to switch them on and off even before you reach temp where you require water.

Foxter's dad has a similar setup on his Musso running a Merc Kompressor motor. Seems to work well....

PS. Bike Hospital sell those fan at +- R200 each. Look at the Suzuki TL fans. They are nice and thin.

Stry

Can i please have Bike Hospital's number, Renier! :?

Current:
2005 BMW 330i (E90) The Beef
Image
Ex:
1999 Audi A4 1.8T (AEB) the tank
1992 VW Citi 1.8i MP9 R.I.P.
1973 Mini Cooper S sold

User avatar
vitchie
Cadet
Posts: 776
Joined: Mon Aug 11, 2008 11:00 am
Car Make: Audi
Car Model: 11' Ibis White A4 2.0T
Membership No: 1317
Location: Randburg, JHB
Contact:

Re: How cann I diy an intercooler spray?

Postby vitchie » Tue Jan 27, 2009 12:36 pm

ruan9n wrote::idea: aaahhhh I see! Liquid could/would warm up on the already hot fmic BUT a mist is a gas and wont :idea:


No i don't think that is it. Mist is still liquid, but smaller drops will evaporate faster than bigger drops, and the largest heat exchange effect occurs upon evaporation
2011 Ibis White A4 2.0T /Xenon/Bluetooth/ - R.I.P.

User avatar
ruan9n
Post Whore
Posts: 31984
Joined: Sun Jul 22, 2007 11:02 am
Car Make: VW
Car Model: Scirocco 2.0TSI dsg
Membership No: 1343
Location: PRETORIA
Contact:

Re: How cann I diy an intercooler spray?

Postby ruan9n » Tue Jan 27, 2009 1:05 pm

Thanks mate :wink: Gotta love your signature :twisted:
Candy white Scirocco 2.0TSI DSG StormtrooperXL 195kw 456nm @ stealth
Revo stage 2, Revo 76mm dp, Revo throttle pipe, APR 1&2 Carbonio intake, Neuspeed hiflow discharge pipe, H&R springs, 19" RS3 wheels, R8 coils, Iridiums, BSH dogbone insert, TTRS lca's, R interior.

Image

Ex: Golf 6 GTI aka "pepper" 252hp 420nm
Ex: Golf 5 GTI aka "stormtrooper" 190kw 390nm
Ex: 9n Polo TDI sportline "The cupra polo" 125kw 430nm
Ex: Some other polos

1.6carbster
Colonel
Posts: 5354
Joined: Sun Mar 26, 2006 10:02 pm
Car Make: BMW
Car Model: 330i (E90)
Membership No: missing
Location: Pretoria east
Contact:

Re: How cann I diy an intercooler spray?

Postby 1.6carbster » Tue Jan 27, 2009 1:44 pm

ruan9n wrote:Thanks mate :wink: Gotta love your signature :twisted:

Yup, that bird, and Eedubz's photographic skills at the Jamboree! Pure bliss 8)

Current:
2005 BMW 330i (E90) The Beef
Image
Ex:
1999 Audi A4 1.8T (AEB) the tank
1992 VW Citi 1.8i MP9 R.I.P.
1973 Mini Cooper S sold

User avatar
Jueshen
Lieutenant
Posts: 1244
Joined: Thu Sep 25, 2008 3:46 pm
Location: GP
Contact:

Re: How cann I diy an intercooler spray?

Postby Jueshen » Tue Jan 27, 2009 3:33 pm

hi Guys,

ive searched on this before and lots of the guys on the overseas forum says it doesn't make a noticible difference if at all, search it before u outlay the cash, also depends when u spray it, most of them say spray the ic befor a run not while you on a run... most of the guys with polo's just remove the rear wiper spray nozel and bring it to the front if u want to bring cost to 0

also to cool the ic down enough you probably need a big water tank...

i think it was in the AU forum the guys had proper measured readings of intake temps of this, without the spray and with it.

go check it out on the vwwatercooled site
Current:
2003 Audi A4 Avant 1.9TDI
2015 Toyota Corolla D4D






Ex:
2007 Polo GTI
Eurodyne! 230WHP & 390NM @ KAR 2016 - without OB
2013 Honda Ballade Elegance
1996 Honda Ballade 150i
1994 Honda Ballade 150 Luxline
1991 Citi Golf 1.3
2009 Citi Rox 1.4i
2007 Polo 1.6 Comfortline
1989 Citi Sport 1.8

1.6carbster
Colonel
Posts: 5354
Joined: Sun Mar 26, 2006 10:02 pm
Car Make: BMW
Car Model: 330i (E90)
Membership No: missing
Location: Pretoria east
Contact:

Re: How cann I diy an intercooler spray?

Postby 1.6carbster » Tue Jan 27, 2009 3:44 pm

Jueshen wrote:hi Guys,

ive searched on this before and lots of the guys on the overseas forum says it doesn't make a noticible difference if at all, search it before u outlay the cash, also depends when u spray it, most of them say spray the ic befor a run not while you on a run... most of the guys with polo's just remove the rear wiper spray nozel and bring it to the front if u want to bring cost to 0

also to cool the ic down enough you probably need a big water tank...

i think it was in the AU forum the guys had proper measured readings of intake temps of this, without the spray and with it.

go check it out on the vwwatercooled site

Thanks bro. makes sense though, as you'd have to spray liters to really cool it down :?
this might work:
Image
[img]http://www.cosworth.hu/content/vegyes/ecu/waterinjection.jpg
[/img]

and then THIS: notice how cold the vapour is...its cooled down in some way :shock:
Image

Current:
2005 BMW 330i (E90) The Beef
Image
Ex:
1999 Audi A4 1.8T (AEB) the tank
1992 VW Citi 1.8i MP9 R.I.P.
1973 Mini Cooper S sold

User avatar
joggiep
Lieutenant-General
Posts: 8878
Joined: Thu Dec 04, 2003 3:41 pm
Car Make: BMW
Car Model: 335
Membership No: 664
Location: Pretoria
Contact:

Re: How cann I diy an intercooler spray?

Postby joggiep » Tue Jan 27, 2009 3:55 pm

1.6carbster wrote:
Stry wrote:Why not simply mount 2 X bike fans on the inside (if there is any space).
They are very slim and dirt cheap. Simple switch or temp sensor should be able to switch them on and off even before you reach temp where you require water.

Foxter's dad has a similar setup on his Musso running a Merc Kompressor motor. Seems to work well....

PS. Bike Hospital sell those fan at +- R200 each. Look at the Suzuki TL fans. They are nice and thin.

Stry

Can i please have Bike Hospital's number, Renier! :?


Not sure of the number but I got a TL 1000 fan for the Jetta there a while back for R200
It's in Schoeman street just after Potgieter Street crossing sits on the left, a little hidden away as you have to walk down a type of ale to get to the shop.
Image

Joggie Pretorius
---------------------------------------
EX - CARS
Jetta CSX 1.8 8v
Golf CTi 1.8 8v
Polo 1.6 lux
SEAT Ibiza Sport
VW Polo 2.0 Highline
BMW E90 320D
VW Caddy 2.0 8V
Nissan X-trail 2.0 dCi
VW Jetta 2.0 16V Turbo
VW Polo 1.6 Comfortline
CURRENT CARS
BMW 335
Suzuki SV1000S (125hp - 109NM)

Esham
Cadet
Posts: 900
Joined: Wed Aug 04, 2004 3:13 pm
Location: Cape Town
Contact:

Re: How cann I diy an intercooler spray?

Postby Esham » Tue Jan 27, 2009 4:39 pm

1.6carbster wrote:
Jueshen wrote:hi Guys,

ive searched on this before and lots of the guys on the overseas forum says it doesn't make a noticible difference if at all, search it before u outlay the cash, also depends when u spray it, most of them say spray the ic befor a run not while you on a run... most of the guys with polo's just remove the rear wiper spray nozel and bring it to the front if u want to bring cost to 0

also to cool the ic down enough you probably need a big water tank...

i think it was in the AU forum the guys had proper measured readings of intake temps of this, without the spray and with it.

go check it out on the vwwatercooled site

Thanks bro. makes sense though, as you'd have to spray liters to really cool it down :?
this might work:
Image
[img]http://www.cosworth.hu/content/vegyes/ecu/waterinjection.jpg
[/img]

and then THIS: notice how cold the vapour is...its cooled down in some way :shock:
Image


Are you sure thats not nitrous being used to cool the IC?
Road: 2014 Polo TSI Highline
Fun: 1969 Vespa 150 Sprint Veloce
Race: Class B Golf Mk1 1.8 8v (GTI Challenge)

User avatar
ruan9n
Post Whore
Posts: 31984
Joined: Sun Jul 22, 2007 11:02 am
Car Make: VW
Car Model: Scirocco 2.0TSI dsg
Membership No: 1343
Location: PRETORIA
Contact:

Re: How cann I diy an intercooler spray?

Postby ruan9n » Tue Jan 27, 2009 5:30 pm

Aaaah damn now i'm being confused, I mean it must cool it down! The cooler must be better off with some sort of water mist spray than without it :idea:
Candy white Scirocco 2.0TSI DSG StormtrooperXL 195kw 456nm @ stealth
Revo stage 2, Revo 76mm dp, Revo throttle pipe, APR 1&2 Carbonio intake, Neuspeed hiflow discharge pipe, H&R springs, 19" RS3 wheels, R8 coils, Iridiums, BSH dogbone insert, TTRS lca's, R interior.

Image

Ex: Golf 6 GTI aka "pepper" 252hp 420nm
Ex: Golf 5 GTI aka "stormtrooper" 190kw 390nm
Ex: 9n Polo TDI sportline "The cupra polo" 125kw 430nm
Ex: Some other polos

User avatar
gambit
Lieutenant-Colonel
Posts: 4707
Joined: Wed Jul 31, 2002 12:26 pm
Location: Cape Town
Contact:

Re: How cann I diy an intercooler spray?

Postby gambit » Wed Jan 28, 2009 9:31 am

1.6carbster wrote:and then THIS: notice how cold the vapour is...its cooled down in some way :shock:
Image


That COLD vapour is Nitrous my friend.... :wink: :wink:
Current
'06 Yamaha YZF-R6
Past
'05 Golf 2.0 TDi Sportline*SOLD*
mk1 CTi 2.0 16vT (Robin)*SOLD*
'09 Chevrolet Captiva 2.4 16v*SOLD*
'04 Renault Megane 1.6 16v *SOLD*
'05 Nissan Hardbody 3.0 16vTDi *SOLD*
'04 GTi 132kw Custom FRC remap *SOLD*
'92 GTi 2.0 16vT (Lana) *SOLD*
'94 2.0 CLi Jetta (Lois) *SOLD*
'91 GTi 1.8 16v *SOLD*
'87 Citi Sport 1600 (2E motor) *SOLD*

VWCSA # 1253
"I know that son-of-a-b!tch is cheating!..'cos i'm cheating and he beat me"

User avatar
BatteryWorldPtaEast
Lieutenant
Posts: 1037
Joined: Thu Aug 02, 2007 7:18 am
Car Make: VW
Car Model: Polo TDI Sportline
Membership No: 1572
Location: Gauteng
Contact:

Re: How cann I diy an intercooler spray?

Postby BatteryWorldPtaEast » Wed Jan 28, 2009 10:19 am

I have built a unit for this with a 2 litre water bottle with a switch that spray when at WOT and it makes a differance ,the 2 l just dont last so im busy surching for a big water bottle from any car that can take 8+ litres ,the 2 lasts about a trip from pta to jhb.

Another thing is ,you can only use 2 misters ,more and the pump just leaks the water no mist.

Another thing is that you can mix the water with some cind of alcohol that makes it vaporate quicker and cool better.
Daily drive : Polo TDI Sportline 180 Hp 349 Nm ATW (Trevor's Custom Map) At Night Dyno
Wife's : 1.9 Tdi Touran
Son's : Cross Polo 1.6 Tdi

Return to “General Tech Discussions”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: AirborneZA, Bing [Bot], Junaid98 and 109 guests