my engine melting the spark plugs 2E engine

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my engine melting the spark plugs 2E engine

Postby a1aa1992 » Fri May 02, 2014 11:53 pm

my engine is 2000cc 2E 8 valve 115hp i have knocking at 4th gear at high rpm i don't know why but it work's after changing the spark plugs from single electrode platnuim to multi electrode copper in the first run at 4th gear at high rpm knock but this time the engine melting the spark plugs i wanna know why i have knocking at 4th gear only at high rpm only and why the engine dont melt the single electrode platnium and melt the multi electrode copper


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Re: my engine melting the spark plugs 2E engine

Postby DCmk3 » Sat May 03, 2014 12:31 am

Sounds like an extremely lean mixture and possibly a bad timing setting.
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Re: my engine melting the spark plugs 2E engine

Postby a1aa1992 » Sat May 03, 2014 12:36 am

DCmk3 wrote:Sounds like an extremely lean mixture and possibly a bad timing setting.

igntion timing ? i have advanced the igntion timing to get more preformance does it make this ?
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Re: my engine melting the spark plugs 2E engine

Postby DCmk3 » Sat May 03, 2014 12:49 am

Advancing the timing too far without increasing the fuelling can cause a lean mixture and lead to melted plugs.
The platinum plugs don't melt as they are able to handle a far higher temperature than the standard plugs which I assume are BUR6ET that have melted.
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Re: my engine melting the spark plugs 2E engine

Postby Fran » Sun May 04, 2014 7:42 pm

Are you using the correct heat range plugs?
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Re: my engine melting the spark plugs 2E engine

Postby a1aa1992 » Sun May 04, 2014 8:12 pm

Fran wrote:Are you using the correct heat range plugs?

yes i use 6 heat range
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Re: my engine melting the spark plugs 2E engine

Postby Torker » Sun May 04, 2014 8:18 pm

Common causes of spark-plugs melting:

Heat range of the plugs too hot
Lean mixture
Timing too far advanced
Cooling system not working properly
Oil flow problems in the head leading to heat built-up

Factors above will contribute to excessive heat and/or detonation, can affect the pistons too if not resolved...
Current rides:

VW Golf - 83 GT 2.1 16V 2-door with throttles
VW Golf - 78 LS 2.0 8V 4-door (2.1 ABF with throttles in progress)
VW Golf - '08 Citi Storm - 1.4 for now
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Re: my engine melting the spark plugs 2E engine

Postby a1aa1992 » Mon May 05, 2014 4:48 am

Torker wrote:Common causes of spark-plugs melting:

Heat range of the plugs too hot
Lean mixture
Timing too far advanced
Cooling system not working properly
Oil flow problems in the head leading to heat built-up

Factors above will contribute to excessive heat and/or detonation, can affect the pistons too if not resolved...

what's the lean mixture ?
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Re: my engine melting the spark plugs 2E engine

Postby Torker » Mon May 05, 2014 5:00 am

a1aa1992 wrote:
Torker wrote:Common causes of spark-plugs melting:

Heat range of the plugs too hot
Lean mixture
Timing too far advanced
Cooling system not working properly
Oil flow problems in the head leading to heat built-up

Factors above will contribute to excessive heat and/or detonation, can affect the pistons too if not resolved...

what's the lean mixture ?


Not enough fuel going into the motor.
Current rides:

VW Golf - 83 GT 2.1 16V 2-door with throttles
VW Golf - 78 LS 2.0 8V 4-door (2.1 ABF with throttles in progress)
VW Golf - '08 Citi Storm - 1.4 for now
Hyundai - 1.4 Getz (daily)

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Re: my engine melting the spark plugs 2E engine

Postby joggiep » Mon May 05, 2014 12:36 pm

I would very strongly suggest that you get your car dynotuned by a professional and would also recomend that you rather not play around with the timing advance on any vechile if you do not have access to a dyno and to a proper air fuel ratio meter.

If you are melting the pluggs there is a rather good change that you have already done some damage to the piston tops.
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Re: my engine melting the spark plugs 2E engine

Postby Donavan » Mon May 05, 2014 3:02 pm

:iagree:
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Re: my engine melting the spark plugs 2E engine

Postby Nellis » Mon May 05, 2014 10:41 pm

Torker wrote:
a1aa1992 wrote:
Torker wrote:Common causes of spark-plugs melting:

Heat range of the plugs too hot
Lean mixture
Timing too far advanced
Cooling system not working properly
Oil flow problems in the head leading to heat built-up

Factors above will contribute to excessive heat and/or detonation, can affect the pistons too if not resolved...

what's the lean mixture ?


Not enough fuel going into the motor.


Christo, maybe we should just elaborate some more when replying to our "North African cousin", in the sense of explaining that an engine needs x parts fuel and y parts air. The OP is from Egypt and his English is not that hot. (Much better than my Arabic though... as I found out when visiting Cairo in 1997... :cool: )

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Re: my engine melting the spark plugs 2E engine

Postby a1aa1992 » Tue May 06, 2014 1:27 am

Torker wrote:
a1aa1992 wrote:
Torker wrote:Common causes of spark-plugs melting:

Heat range of the plugs too hot
Lean mixture
Timing too far advanced
Cooling system not working properly
Oil flow problems in the head leading to heat built-up

Factors above will contribute to excessive heat and/or detonation, can affect the pistons too if not resolved...

what's the lean mixture ?


Not enough fuel going into the motor.

when i check the fuel pump i got 3bar of fuel press i think that's enough for the 2E injectors but the engine was not working does the engine need the 3bar of press to 6 Rpm it maybe that 3 bar get low at high rpm so if the press get low at high rpm do this knocking ? i'm sorry for my bad english but i'm trying to connect with u
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Re: my engine melting the spark plugs 2E engine

Postby Torker » Tue May 06, 2014 1:36 am

a1aa1992 wrote:
Torker wrote:
a1aa1992 wrote:
Torker wrote:Common causes of spark-plugs melting:

Heat range of the plugs too hot
Lean mixture
Timing too far advanced
Cooling system not working properly
Oil flow problems in the head leading to heat built-up

Factors above will contribute to excessive heat and/or detonation, can affect the pistons too if not resolved...

what's the lean mixture ?


Not enough fuel going into the motor.

when i check the fuel pump i got 3bar of fuel press i think that's enough for the 2E injectors but the engine was not working does the engine need the 3bar of press to 6 Rpm it maybe that 3 bar get low at high rpm so if the press get low at high rpm do this knocking ? i'm sorry for my bad english but i'm trying to connect with u


The fuel pump must be able to maintain 3 bar pressure over the entire rpm range under load, if you suspect it's not keeping up look at upgrading the pump. What pump are you using at the moment?
Current rides:

VW Golf - 83 GT 2.1 16V 2-door with throttles
VW Golf - 78 LS 2.0 8V 4-door (2.1 ABF with throttles in progress)
VW Golf - '08 Citi Storm - 1.4 for now
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Re: my engine melting the spark plugs 2E engine

Postby a1aa1992 » Tue May 06, 2014 2:18 am

Torker wrote:
a1aa1992 wrote:
Torker wrote:
a1aa1992 wrote:
Torker wrote:Common causes of spark-plugs melting:

Heat range of the plugs too hot
Lean mixture
Timing too far advanced
Cooling system not working properly
Oil flow problems in the head leading to heat built-up

Factors above will contribute to excessive heat and/or detonation, can affect the pistons too if not resolved...

what's the lean mixture ?


Not enough fuel going into the motor.

when i check the fuel pump i got 3bar of fuel press i think that's enough for the 2E injectors but the engine was not working does the engine need the 3bar of press to 6 Rpm it maybe that 3 bar get low at high rpm so if the press get low at high rpm do this knocking ? i'm sorry for my bad english but i'm trying to connect with u


The fuel pump must be able to maintain 3 bar pressure over the entire rpm range under load, if you suspect it's not keeping up look at upgrading the pump. What pump are you using at the moment?

bosch external fuel pump 3bar
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Re: my engine melting the spark plugs 2E engine

Postby a1aa1992 » Tue May 06, 2014 2:21 am

Torker wrote:
a1aa1992 wrote:
Torker wrote:
a1aa1992 wrote:
Torker wrote:Common causes of spark-plugs melting:

Heat range of the plugs too hot
Lean mixture
Timing too far advanced
Cooling system not working properly
Oil flow problems in the head leading to heat built-up

Factors above will contribute to excessive heat and/or detonation, can affect the pistons too if not resolved...

what's the lean mixture ?


Not enough fuel going into the motor.

when i check the fuel pump i got 3bar of fuel press i think that's enough for the 2E injectors but the engine was not working does the engine need the 3bar of press to 6 Rpm it maybe that 3 bar get low at high rpm so if the press get low at high rpm do this knocking ? i'm sorry for my bad english but i'm trying to connect with u


The fuel pump must be able to maintain 3 bar pressure over the entire rpm range under load, if you suspect it's not keeping up look at upgrading the pump. What pump are you using at the moment?



http://0.tqn.com/d/autorepair/1/0/8/4/- ... -bosch.jpg like this one
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Re: my engine melting the spark plugs 2E engine

Postby THANAS » Tue May 06, 2014 6:06 am

If I'm not mistaken, your fuel pump should be delivering 3.5bar of pressure and your fuel pressure regulator on your fuel rail should be regulating that down to a constant 3 bar.

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Re: my engine melting the spark plugs 2E engine

Postby Torker » Tue May 06, 2014 7:12 am

CCBB wrote:If I'm not mistaken, your fuel pump should be delivering 3.5bar of pressure and your fuel pressure regulator on your fuel rail should be regulating that down to a constant 3 bar.

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The pump itself should push between 5 and 6 bar and that gets regulated down to 3 bar.

Pump should be fine then, try retarding (pulling back) your timing and see if the detonation (pinging) goes away.
Current rides:

VW Golf - 83 GT 2.1 16V 2-door with throttles
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Re: my engine melting the spark plugs 2E engine

Postby graham savage » Tue May 06, 2014 8:04 am

You should also remember that the car is in Cairo, the weather is very hot there and this will contribute to a knocking condition.

I would retard the timing, you have lost lots of power by advancing it so far.

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Re: my engine melting the spark plugs 2E engine

Postby joggiep » Tue May 06, 2014 10:19 am

Guys please let us help this guy properly..

To do that the only real way would be to get it on a dyno. Retarding the timing might fix the immediate issue but how much. I can't see what management is used so that plays a role in what/how the ignition timing gets advanced or retarded by the management system.

Fuel pressure is also important.

What you need to understand is that what can and in all likelihood will kill a motor every time and quickly as well is knock or running lean when under load and at high rpm. This is exactly where you have the issue. Can you see/monitor the fuel pressure when you are driving the car on the road or the AFR's if you can not please get the car to someone that has a fuel pressure gauge, a AFR meter and a dyno so that you can see in a safe manner what is happening before you do any more damage to that motor.
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Re: my engine melting the spark plugs 2E engine

Postby Zubair » Tue May 06, 2014 10:32 am

Turn your ignition distributor slightly anti clock wise, see if that sorts out your melting plug issue.
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Re: my engine melting the spark plugs 2E engine

Postby Torker » Tue May 06, 2014 10:54 am

joggiep wrote:Guys please let us help this guy properly..

To do that the only real way would be to get it on a dyno. Retarding the timing might fix the immediate issue but how much. I can't see what management is used so that plays a role in what/how the ignition timing gets advanced or retarded by the management system.

Fuel pressure is also important.

What you need to understand is that what can and in all likelihood will kill a motor every time and quickly as well is knock or running lean when under load and at high rpm. This is exactly where you have the issue. Can you see/monitor the fuel pressure when you are driving the car on the road or the AFR's if you can not please get the car to someone that has a fuel pressure gauge, a AFR meter and a dyno so that you can see in a safe manner what is happening before you do any more damage to that motor.


This is the problem here, he doesn't have access to proper diagnostic tools or a tuner with a Dyno, management is stock 2.0 MP9 it sounds like - he installed the motor, harness and management together...
Current rides:

VW Golf - 83 GT 2.1 16V 2-door with throttles
VW Golf - 78 LS 2.0 8V 4-door (2.1 ABF with throttles in progress)
VW Golf - '08 Citi Storm - 1.4 for now
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Re: my engine melting the spark plugs 2E engine

Postby joggiep » Tue May 06, 2014 11:02 am

Eish...

Not good then...Its a hit and miss affair at best and chances are that that motor will end up as coffee table in the near future.

You can retard it until it stops pinging even if you have a Fuel pressure issue but that will kill performance.

If it's MP9 it's just again a shining example of how utterly useless the knock sensor is.
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Re: my engine melting the spark plugs 2E engine

Postby Torker » Tue May 06, 2014 11:10 am

joggiep wrote:Eish...

Not good then...Its a hit and miss affair at best and chances are that that motor will end up as coffee table in the near future.

You can retard it until it stops pinging even if you have a Fuel pressure issue but that will kill performance.

If it's MP9 it's just again a shining example of how utterly useless the knock sensor is.


I'm standing under correction on the MP9 part, it might be Digifant...
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Re: my engine melting the spark plugs 2E engine

Postby MarshallGTi » Tue May 06, 2014 12:28 pm

+1 to what everyone said, put the ignition timing back to where it should be for a start. have you had the injectors checked? if they are not up to scratch they could be causing the lean mixture.
It is an ingenius solution to a problem that should have never existed in the 1st place...

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