cylinder block deck cooling

[WesleyGuy55]

has any body done something like this locally?

[Donavan]

[Torker]

You sure it's for cooling? I can remember the guys running high boost doing something similar, called 'ringing the block'. they machine it and put a metal insert in there that gets clamped between the head and the block, preventing gasket blowouts.

[Digit Riaan]

You sure it's for cooling? I can remember the guys running high boost doing something similar, called 'ringing the block'. they machine it and put a metal insert in there that gets clamped between the head and the block, preventing gasket blowouts.

In an o-ringed block the "ring" goes all the way around.



This must be for cooling then...first time for me.

[Impi]

Definitely not for 'O' ringing purposes but an attempt at improved cooling. Easily done on a milling machine. I wouldn't do it for a couple of reasons.
1 in order to cool using fluid the fluid needs to move thus carrying away the heat transferred into it and I cant see how this would happen here I think that you would create pockets of steam which could? damage the gasket which if left std will have a bigger exposure area to water.
2 the sealing ring inside the gasket will have more space to move into when pressure is applied such as during combustion
3 lining up the inside part of the head gasket will be very difficult to achieve unles gasket is in one piece
4 the clamping force between head and block will be altered and could lead to distortion.

All this said Hino motors took out a patent where they did this using a groove filled with oil and this was fed by the oil pump. thus carrying heat away from the combustion chamber with flow

regards
Armand

[Impi]

Hino patent
http://www.google.com/patents/US20020033149
Armand

[PoLonY]

Great post Impi, thanks!

[AlexTDi]

Impi has some great valuable knowledge

[WesleyGuy55]

From what I've seen there is a company in the States, called "EuroSpec" they offer this feature of "increased Deck Cooling", it seems like a groove is cut around the water jackets that surround the cylinders to join, so I can come to the assumption that nobody has done this kind of mod before locally? Im wanting to do this for a motor build I'm currently busy with, but i cant find any solid info on how it is done, and what kind of gasket is used etc etc...

here is the link to their website with their products on offer

http://www.eurospecsport.com/products/engines/4c-4v.htm

http://www.eurospecsport.com/index.htm

It will be interesting to find more useful information on this particular modification etc etc...

thanks for reading

[MarshallGTi]

why are you looking into this? what motor is it and what car is it going into? my thinking is that if the cooling system is functioning properly and the components are correct and decent quality, there shouldnt be a problem and this wont be necessary.

[graham savage]

My mk2's cooling system is all functioning correctly, but the increased power = increased heat to dissipate and it simply cannot cope. Every little bit helps i suppose but i think I'll leave that sort of mod for when I've exhausted every other method

[WesleyGuy55]

@Marshall I'm filling my brain with as much knowledge as possible, i would like to build a hi output NA motor that can be driven reliably every day in daily conditions and driven hard on a track when the opportunity arises.

this is the kind of head gasket one would use,


And here is a quote from a website i found.

Cut and paste
" The Audi Sport works engines from the heydeys of Group B rally racing pushed the power of the 20VT I5 engines to levels that required additional cooling to ensure the engines would hold together through an entire stage of left-foot braking and high duty cycle positive boost pressures. The closed deck design of the engines, although very strong and rigid, is less than optimal for heat transfer in the vicinity of the combustion chamber. Their solution was to machine the deck of the block and head to create channels for additional cooling fluid very near to the top of the combustion chamber. This modification has been proven to allow for increased spark advance over an non-modified engine. Additionally, increased clamping pressure on the head gasket interface and more uniform cylinder head temperatures can also be realized.

You send in your bare head/block to be have the head and/or block machined to have better cooling around the combustion chambers. This is similar to what Audi Sport did with these engines back in the heyday of rallying in the 80′s. This will allow you to run more power, advance timing, and have more temperature uniformity within the area of the combustion chamber. Additionally, the reduction of surface area will cause an increase in clamping pressure and effectively strengthen the head gasket interface."

here is the link,
http://brydon-eng.com/catalog/services/ ... k-cooling/

It seems like a very effective mod, especially with those benefits, Obviously one would need to know the correct measurements before just doing it.

I see this being used in big bore applications, EG: most guys that build motors say that you can only go to 83.5mm bore or else you will start seeing excessive heat issues, but with this mod, and the extra cooling it creates, would it not be possible to then go even bigger??? 86mm perhaps?? Short block with that bore with 86.4mm crank, will be a hi revving 2.0 high KW NA motor....

The more i look into it, the more interesting it becomes....

thanks for reading

[Digit Riaan]

Subaru and Honda uses it:





There will be benefits and drawbacks, but I do not have time to look into it now...

https://www.google.co.za/search?q=subar ... 3&ie=UTF-8

[Digit Riaan]

...I see this being used in big bore applications, EG: most guys that build motors say that you can only go to 83.5mm bore or else you will start seeing excessive heat issues, but with this mod, and the extra cooling it creates, would it not be possible to then go even bigger??? 86mm perhaps?? Short block with that bore with 86.4mm crank, will be a hi revving 2.0 high KW NA motor....

The more i look into it, the more interesting it becomes....

thanks for reading

You seem to forget that the larger you bore, the less the meat between the pistons becomes...so there is a physical limit to it as well.

[cpichiptuning]

Subaru and Honda uses it:





There will be benefits and drawbacks, but I do not have time to look into it now...

https://www.google.co.za/search?q=subar ... 3&ie=UTF-8

vw motors comes out standard with the deck cooling for a couple of years already, think my first golf 4 was a 2001 model and deck cooling same as honda and subaru, will post a pic if I can find it from the top deck, here`s the motor with a bottom view

[PoLonY]

Open deck is kak weak

Iirc open deck is cheaper to manufacture compared to closed deck as the casting is less complex

Closed deck is much stronger for boost as the cylinders can't flex or shift.

I wouldn't do it personally to a closed deck motor

Sent from my GT-I9100 using Tapatalk 2

[PoLonY]

There is a reason why subaru and honda engine builders use Darton sleeves when wanting to go big boost etc.

Weak walls from open deck design.

I know since volvo motors are the same

And a na engine running on 95 octane will never stress a closed deck block enough to need that tiny bit of extra cooling imo

Standard cooling ports and flow around cylinders will be plenty

More hassle then its worth.

Sent from my GT-I9100 using Tapatalk 2

[MarshallGTi]

There is a reason why subaru and honda engine builders use Darton sleeves when wanting to go big boost etc.

Weak walls from open deck design.

I know since volvo motors are the same

And a na engine running on 95 octane will never stress a closed deck block enough to need that tiny bit of extra cooling imo

Standard cooling ports and flow around cylinders will be plenty

More hassle then its worth.

Sent from my GT-I9100 using Tapatalk 2

[cpichiptuning]

two pics of the vw block, this block as can see the water channels is only left open on the top, so 2/3 of the sleeve is properly inbed,
rally S2000 vw use this blocks and get up to 260bhp on there motors, it has the nick name F1 block,

[PoLonY]

that is an open deck block

perfectly fine for NA applications but under boost will suffer

and Rally S2000 motors are NA.

[MarshallGTi]

http://www.s2000rally.com/vw-polo-s2000.php
280+hp NA

[boost'd]

Open deck blocks are kak weak..

Some sleeves even crack on NA hondas.

[PoLonY]

http://www.s2000rally.com/vw-polo-s2000.php
280+hp NA

BTCC cars were doing 320HP out of 2.0L back in 98

[PoLonY]

Open deck blocks are kak weak..

Some sleeves even crack on NA hondas.

exactly

[a1ofvw]

http://www.s2000rally.com/vw-polo-s2000.php
280+hp NA

BTCC cars were doing 320HP out of 2.0L back in 98

yip running stupid compression on elf racing fuel... anthony taylor mentioned to me one day what they paid for a can of that petrol back then...

if you walked with a open can of that fuel past your car the paint will start peeling off!!!