TDI INJECTOR UPGRADE

[Ramster]

Hi guys
i read alot about this the say it will give you 20% to 30% power gains
does the seat pd160 use better injectors than the polo
or does bosch have a upgrade to the std one

[ruan9n]

also have heard a lot about injector upgrades, remember the 160 is the threshold for sportline upgrades. TURBOwise and coolerwise also it should use the same injectors as the 130 but probably upgraded or modified in a way

[BatteryWorldPtaEast]

If i remember correctly ,the PD130 and PD160 engine as a basis is the same ,just turbo and cooler is bigger.

[Neuk]

You could look at replacing injectors, possibly for the 2.5TDi or V10 TDi injectors, if they are in fact bigger and higher flowing than the PD130/PD160 injectors. You would also need a pump upgrade in order to feed the injectors correctly, but I am not sure if there is anything available off the shelf as most guys overseas modify their stock pumps...

An alternative could be to change nozzles, for nozzles with larger diameter holes, but keep the stock injector uni tand upgrade the fuel pump...

Both are going to be expensive though...

Cheers
Nic

[dazza]

You could look at replacing injectors, possibly for the 2.5TDi or V10 TDi injectors, if they are in fact bigger and higher flowing than the PD130/PD160 injectors. You would also need a pump upgrade in order to feed the injectors correctly, but I am not sure if there is anything available off the shelf as most guys overseas modify their stock pumps...

An alternative could be to change nozzles, for nozzles with larger diameter holes, but keep the stock injector uni tand upgrade the fuel pump...

Both are going to be expensive though...

Cheers
Nic

Will the bigger injectors/nozzels need to be done? From what i recall reading one only needs to increase injector size if the power figures are going to exceed 200HP+. The stock injectors can handle alot as they are.

[ruan9n]

[/quote]
Will the bigger injectors/nozzels need to be done? From what i recall reading one only needs to increase injector size if the power figures are going to exceed 200HP+. The stock injectors can handle alot as they are.[/quote]
+1 on that! stock injectors can handle a lot

[Ramster]

they recon it will cost 3-5g $300
and if you get 25 kw extra why not

if you compare that to a pd 160 turbo it will give you more power

there is a 22kw diffrnce between the pd 130 and pd 160
pd160=fmic/10kw better zorst and intake 2kw
so if you looking at the turbo alone you looking at 10kw


injectors should be a better option than turbo upgrade

[BlueBlob]

[ruan9n]

injectors should be a better option than turbo upgrade

cant see this happening guy

[BillyBob]

they recon it will cost 3-5g $300
and if you get 25 kw extra why not

if you compare that to a pd 160 turbo it will give you more power

there is a 22kw diffrnce between the pd 130 and pd 160
pd160=fmic/10kw better zorst and intake 2kw
so if you looking at the turbo alone you looking at 10kw


injectors should be a better option than turbo upgrade

The modern internal combustion engine (whether diesel or petrol) needs two chief ingredients to make power - fuel and air.. the more of both you're able to give it, the more power it'll make..

Okay, so now let's say you have injectors capable of a gazillion horsepower... you can fit them, and no matter how much diesel they'll be able to pump into the cylinder, the turbo only supplies air for 150 hp... so how much power are you going to make??

Think about it and get back to us...

[ruan9n]

they recon it will cost 3-5g $300
and if you get 25 kw extra why not

if you compare that to a pd 160 turbo it will give you more power

there is a 22kw diffrnce between the pd 130 and pd 160
pd160=fmic/10kw better zorst and intake 2kw
so if you looking at the turbo alone you looking at 10kw


injectors should be a better option than turbo upgrade

The modern internal combustion engine (whether diesel or petrol) needs two chief ingredients to make power - fuel and air.. the more of both you're able to give it, the more power it'll make..

Okay, so now let's say you have injectors capable of a gazillion horsepower... you can fit them, and no matter how much diesel they'll be able to pump into the cylinder, the turbo only supplies air for 150 hp... so how much power are you going to make??

Think about it and get back to us...

ON THE BUTTON You have to fit a moerse big larger turbo (vnt17vb, vnt20) when upgrading the tdi injectors

[Ramster]

i hear what you are saying

but think about it and this is what i red

my pd130 tdi is making 133kw with chip
pd160 is making 145 with chip

12kw more and less nm
do remember that the seat got a fmic which as far as i can read is good for 10 kw
so after that its only making 2 kw more that me

upgrade your injectors and they say you will see 20% to 30% extra power
its just as good as the s/w upgrade

im sure a turbo will be the best but 4g for injectors vs 15g for turbo

[BlueBlob]

Think about it and get back to us...

Hence my rolleyes response.

We've done a semi-circle here; except, it's not VR6 INJEKTORS Yo!!1 on a 1.4i anymore. Now it's V10 TDi injectors on a PD100. Lol.

[BillyBob]

i hear what you are saying

but think about it and this is what i red

my pd130 tdi is making 133kw with chip
pd160 is making 145 with chip

12kw more and less nm
do remember that the seat got a fmic which as far as i can read is good for 10 kw
so after that its only making 2 kw more that me

upgrade your injectors and they say you will see 20% to 30% extra power
its just as good as the s/w upgrade

im sure a turbo will be the best but 4g for injectors vs 15g for turbo

Dude... we have thought about it... trust me when I say that a few people around here actually know what they're talking about, and are just trying to give you sound advice - not because we're super smart, snobbish, or even technically inclined - but because there are some principles in this universe that are just universally true and applicable, regardless of which way you look at it..

Unfortunately, one of life's little rules is that you need to maintain the ratio of fuel and air, into higher figures, if you'd like to make more power - the corollary of that is simply - won't make more power on a stock turbo TDI by simply fitting larger injectors - unless the factory injectors were ridiculously under-sized to begin with..

Let me break this down into actual FIGURES for you...

PD130 making 133 kW = very strong... well done. But now you're already pushing that turbo as hard as it'll go - it's in the choke line already (or very close) and will not flow more air than it's already doing if you now over-spin it.

Trust me, your stock injectors still have a bit of headroom to them - but now, you can use the injectors off a V8 Peterbilt truck if you like- capable of making 500 hp in your application, and you can piss as much fuel into the cylinder as you want... If the turbo isn't supplying the air, you're simply wasting fuel and actually LOSING power by making the mixture too rich.

Injectors don't supply air - they supply fuel... and without the necessary amount of air, burning in ratio to the fuel that you've supplied, you will not make more power... End of story.

Maximum engine power is bottlenecked by either a shortage of fuel or air... Think of it as a chain, which is only as strong as its weakest link... your turbo's airflow is up to par for 180-185 hp, and your current injectors are good for about 190-200 hp if you really push them... power on your car - 180 hp...

NOW, we give the car injectors capable of 500 hp, but we're still stuck with the 180-odd hp turbo... Power on the car?? Surprise surprise - 180 hp..

But hey, don't take my word for it - If you don't believe us, go ahead and see for yourself - pay school fees - go drop 4 grand on a set of injectors... you'll not only NOT make more power, but also be overfuelling on those injectors (as they're still programmed to operate on the duty cycle of the stock injectors, which supplied a lesser amount of fuel) - thus shooting your economy to hell and most likely losing power as a result.

[dazza]

I am scepticle of those figures,but I am no expert. hence i say go for it if you are willing to spend the bucks and please post gains once you have done the upgrade. Diesel tuning in SA is far behind the states and europe so until we try something like injectors we will never know

[joggiep]

Bigger injectors without more boost wil only result in a m0rse lot more black smoke and in all liklyhood less power.

Rather have a look at Some Nitro's or LP gas kit.

[Neuk]

Will the bigger injectors/nozzels need to be done? From what i recall reading one only needs to increase injector size if the power figures are going to exceed 200HP+. The stock injectors can handle alot as they are.

+1 on that! stock injectors can handle a lot

Yes and no really, as there comes a point where lengthening the injector firing time only dumps extra fuel at the wrong time in the engine cycle, which may cool things down a bit but won't add any more power...

Cheers
Nic

[Neuk]

i hear what you are saying

but think about it and this is what i red

my pd130 tdi is making 133kw with chip
pd160 is making 145 with chip

12kw more and less nm
do remember that the seat got a fmic which as far as i can read is good for 10 kw
so after that its only making 2 kw more that me

upgrade your injectors and they say you will see 20% to 30% extra power
its just as good as the s/w upgrade

im sure a turbo will be the best but 4g for injectors vs 15g for turbo

STO

Where did you get this information from?

Matter of fact an injector nozzle upgrade is one of the first things a lot of the MkIV Golf and Jetta TDi drivers do in the States and Canada, along with a fuel pump upgrade, and they make more power But 20% - 30% more is a bit far fetched for me, and it is almost always accompanied with a software remap to adjust boost But the MkIV is a different animal to the new PD type engines as they have a central pump feeding the injectors, and each injector is not a pump itself like in the PD engine...

Cheers
Nic

[Ramster]

gents i am no pro but this is one of the stuff i red



As with building up any vehicle for power, vw tdi performance starts with the basic modifications first. The vw tdi will get its biggest two gains out of a tdi chip or module and out of tdi injectors. Your average chip or module upgrade will give about a 20% power increase. A tdi injector upgrade usually yields about a 20% gain as well. If the right combination of tdi chip/module and injectors are used even more will be gained. i.e. (Van Aaken Smartbox & Van Aaken Smart Power Nozzles) Those are the most basic vw tdi performance upgrades.

Another basic vw tdi performance modification is the tdi exhaust. If you are going to increase fueling you will in turn increase EGT’s (exhaust gas temperatures). So to keep temperatures lower and to help increase performance of the vw tdi even more, one of two things can be done. One a mufflerectomy can be performed in which the muffler and resonator are removed and a straight pipe is put in their place. This opens things up a little and removes the baffling of the muffler so that the exhaust can flow more freely. The second tdi exhaust option is the aero turbine muffler. The inner design of the muffler works the same as a jet engine to increase the flow of exhaust even more than what a mufflerectomy does. The inner design splits the air via an air foil. The faster air moves through the center and the slower air moves around the outside of the air foil, the slower moving air then re-enters the main air stream through inlets that go down the sides of the mufflers inner cylinder. This recombining creates a vortex that lowers the tone of the exhaust and dramatically reduces back pressure by increasing the flow of all the exhaust that moves through it.

Increasing air flow into the engine will help more of the fuel to be combusted and to help extract more power out of each molecule of fuel. Most cold air intakes have a large cone air filter that is able to move up to 300% more air than the stock air intake system. This makes the cold air intake an important part of any vw tdi performance package, sadly though cold air intakes are not currently made for all the vw tdi models. Another modification that helps with air intake and exhaust is water methanol injection. Water methanol injection is also known as chemical intercooling. It has a three fold effect on the diesel engine. It cools the intake charge which provides for more available air intake and the benefits of a higher positive pressure ratio (more power giving fuel can be utilized safely without high combustion temperatures). Two, the combustion of water also adds power and three; methanol is also a high octane fuel that adds more power. Water methanol injection typically lowers EGT’s by about 200 to 250 degrees on bigger diesels and is slightly under that for the vw tdi.

So in conclusion, to be able to build a real beast the modifications must be made from the ground up. After these mods are made then a bigger turbo and intercooler could be added as well as upgrading the clutch and other components to help hold the added power.

[Sinbad]

[

If the turbo isn't supplying the air, you're simply wasting fuel and actually LOSING power by making the mixture too rich.


But hey, don't take my word for it - If you don't believe us, go ahead and see for yourself - pay school fees - go drop 4 grand on a set of injectors... you'll not only NOT make more power, but also be overfuelling on those injectors (as they're still programmed to operate on the duty cycle of the stock injectors, which supplied a lesser amount of fuel) - thus shooting your economy to hell and most likely losing power as a result.

On a diesel, running too rich is one of the cardinal sins. Diesels rely on surplus air for cooling.

Running too rich WILL kill your turbo. I have a nice shiny new VNT17b as proof.

[Ramster]

another one as i said im a dummy when it comes to this stuff

and if you realize they say this mod is best after chip before bigger turbo


Another popular upgrade is to replace the fuel injector nozzles with larger units for more fuel flow. PowerPlus performance diesel injection nozzles by Fratelli Bosio of Italy are available in North America exclusively from KERMATDI. They provide a better spray pattern and flow more fuel than the stock nozzles. The result is a 10-20% increase in power and torque, depending on your choice of nozzle and the tolerances of your specific fuel pump.

My current nozzles are PP502s. The ALH guys with large VNT turbos love them. But the smoke is a bit obnoxious in 1Z/AHU applications. PP520s are a better choice... maybe PP764s. I will very likely switch to PP357s just to keep my smoke in check while still enjoying an upgrade. My particular injector bodies (pictured) are from a European T4 Bus with 150-hp 2.5-liter TDI. They were supplied by KERMATDI when I purchased new injectors.

My final fuel delivery mod is a mod called the "Keystone Mod." Details behind this mod are confidential between Rocketchip and his customers. Generally speaking, the mod ensures IP case pressure and horsepower are maintained at higher RPMs.

[Neuk]

STO

Interesting read, where did you find this - tdiclub.com?

Like I said above, an injector nozzle upgrade is one of the first things a lot of the MkIV Golf and Jetta TDi drivers do in the States and Canada, along with a fuel pump upgrade, and they do make more power. But these are on the older ALH and VE type TDi engines which do not obviously have PD injectors like the more modern 1.9 8v and 2.0 16v PD TDi motors. I know that nozzle changes on these older engines yield power gains, but I am unsure of whether the same can be said of the PD series motors, as it is an altogether vastly different engine...

Would be interested to see the effect though, will do some research...

Cheers
Nic

[Abnormal]

I really dont know much about diesels but i am going to add something that i think may be useful.

Diesels work differently from petrols in that in a petrol engine a throttle body is used to restrict the amount of air that flows through the engine. The fuel management then controls the injectors to spray the required amount of fuel for the amount of air that is present. This opening and closing of the throttle then controls how the engine revs/ makes power.

In a diesel engine there is no throttle body and when you put you foot down diesel is actually pumped into the engine. So more fuel as controlled by the accelerator pedal= more power.

looking at the way this seems to work there may be some argument here for the theory that better injector spray patterns and more flow will give better results, as you will be able to intorduce more fuel at the correct time compared to the standard injectors.



So whos going to go get some injectors and test them out.


PS I could be talking complete nonsense here

[MeanTdi]

Dude... we have thought about it... trust me when I say that a few people around here actually know what they're talking about, and are just trying to give you sound advice - not because we're super smart, snobbish, or even technically inclined - but because there are some principles in this universe that are just universally true and applicable, regardless of which way you look at it..

Unfortunately, one of life's little rules is that you need to maintain the ratio of fuel and air, into higher figures, if you'd like to make more power - the corollary of that is simply - won't make more power on a stock turbo TDI by simply fitting larger injectors - unless the factory injectors were ridiculously under-sized to begin with..

Let me break this down into actual FIGURES for you...

PD130 making 133 kW = very strong... well done. But now you're already pushing that turbo as hard as it'll go - it's in the choke line already (or very close) and will not flow more air than it's already doing if you now over-spin it.

Trust me, your stock injectors still have a bit of headroom to them - but now, you can use the injectors off a V8 Peterbilt truck if you like- capable of making 500 hp in your application, and you can piss as much fuel into the cylinder as you want... If the turbo isn't supplying the air, you're simply wasting fuel and actually LOSING power by making the mixture too rich.

Injectors don't supply air - they supply fuel... and without the necessary amount of air, burning in ratio to the fuel that you've supplied, you will not make more power... End of story.

Maximum engine power is bottlenecked by either a shortage of fuel or air... Think of it as a chain, which is only as strong as its weakest link... your turbo's airflow is up to par for 180-185 hp, and your current injectors are good for about 190-200 hp if you really push them... power on your car - 180 hp...

NOW, we give the car injectors capable of 500 hp, but we're still stuck with the 180-odd hp turbo... Power on the car?? Surprise surprise - 180 hp..

But hey, don't take my word for it - If you don't believe us, go ahead and see for yourself - pay school fees - go drop 4 grand on a set of injectors... you'll not only NOT make more power, but also be overfuelling on those injectors (as they're still programmed to operate on the duty cycle of the stock injectors, which supplied a lesser amount of fuel) - thus shooting your economy to hell and most likely losing power as a result.

I could not have said it better than this! BillyBob you are spot on.

@ Nerville: Bigger injectors could provide a better spary pattern but then you would need to up the next link in the chain - the injector pump and so it goes on.

I think that the turbo would be the next logical upgrade after a chip, intercooler and exhaust. Injectors only if you skip a stage and fit a turbo two stages up ...and on it goes

until you start breaking side shafts and gearboxes...

[Neuk]

I really dont know much about diesels but i am going to add something that i think may be useful.

Diesels work differently from petrols in that in a petrol engine a throttle body is used to restrict the amount of air that flows through the engine. The fuel management then controls the injectors to spray the required amount of fuel for the amount of air that is present. This opening and closing of the throttle then controls how the engine revs/ makes power.

In a diesel engine there is no throttle body and when you put you foot down diesel is actually pumped into the engine. So more fuel as controlled by the accelerator pedal= more power.

looking at the way this seems to work there may be some argument here for the theory that better injector spray patterns and more flow will give better results, as you will be able to intorduce more fuel at the correct time compared to the standard injectors.



So whos going to go get some injectors and test them out.


PS I could be talking complete nonsense here

Something to remember though is that a TDi does not monitor AFR, so it doesn't adjust fuelling or boost according to AFR. By adding bigger injectors or nozzles, you are adding more fuel for the same injection timing, but not necessarily more air. So by just changing injectors or nozzles, you increase fueling, but not necessarily air, affecting the AFR. But luckily, although it is not recommended, a diesel can run at lower and higher AFR ratio's than petrol engines so adding fuel does give extra power, but that comes with a lower AFR ratio and more smoke or soot...

As I have said before, the guys in the States and Canada love the nozzle changes, and they work very well on the older VE and ALH TDi's, but I haven't done much research into teh effect on PD based TDi engines...

Cheers
Nic