6N Brake upgrade-cheap, cheapish

polo'd
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6N Brake upgrade-cheap, cheapish

Post by polo'd »

Hi Guys,

Those looking to get your 6N stopping in hurry got some tips. I've done this already so I know it works.

Front: Golf 4 GTI discs 280mm-redrill to suit 4 bolt pattern. The inner radius is identical so is the point for the locating screw. Audi A4 front calipers (vented). These bolt straight on (if you have the loose caliper bracket type hub. If not change). AG616 brake pads. You will be left with +- 4mm overhang on the inner and outer of the pad. If you're only going to do the front then there's no need to upgrade the master cylinder as the caliper piston diameter is the same-57mm. The flexi brake hose will also just go in to the caliper. Just a thought, there is still enough clearance in the caliper bracket for a bigger disc, maybe Audi too. I have not measured the depth so I can't say. Someone maybe try it..

Rear: This is the usual Jetta 3 stubs, discs and backing plates. I didn't want to waste time and money by fabricating new cables so I used the A4 rear calipers with the hand brake lever going to the top (not the bottom as in Jetta 3). The caliper brackets are identical to Jetta 3 as is the location of the brake hose (off at an angle to clear the swing arm). I then welded in a 60mm tube on each cable anchor plate on the caliper to house the original Polo cables. You may need to unhook the RH cable to get enough length as its routed around the fuel tank. Re-route the hand brake cables over the swing arm. You can use your existing solid brake hose, you just need to manipulate it with pipe bender to go into the flexi hose (don't crimp it closed). Be careful on the RH side that the pipe clears the wheel.

If you do the rear conversion you will need to fit the 22mm master cylinder to compensate for the extra displacement needed to move the bigger pistons. It can still work with the std 19mm but you will have an additional +-20mm pedal travel before they really bite. But when they do... P.S. Use your seatbelts.. Oh, another thing: Those of you with stock 13 or 14" wheels will suddenly discover your wheels don't fit anymore! So be warned, make sure you have at least 15" rims. It also depends on the rim style. So make sure first. I have 17" Villians on mine so there is still plenty place, If you have any queries contact me via the usual routes...
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Post by LittleG »

Take pictures please. I want to see how the Callipers look with this overhang and I have no clue on what hubs your talking about?
GTI4 ran 288mm Disks not 280 IIRC? 288 would probably give you your extra 4mm IMHO.

How much where the callipers?
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Post by polo'd »

Will take pics to show. As for the hub: There are two types: Fixed caliper bracket and bolt on. This will show as two different brake pads. There's an easy pay to check. If you have the pad with the anti-rattle clip on top the you're ok. You should be ok with your 1.6i though. The calipers were R800 a pair-used. Rear R500.
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Post by SHAUN »

Yes please post some pics i really wanna see...
2006 E92 335i * Monica
2001 Audi S3 Quattro * Suzie-Q
1999 Jetta 3 20vt 181kw 390nm * Jet-Li
2006 Caddy 1.6 low and slow * Tossa-Caddy
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Post by polo'd »

Just give me a day or two. The wife is using it as her daily drive.
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Post by LittleG »

Ok AFAIK there was a run of 1400's that had the older 239mm setup and similar to the MK2 and the early 1600 MK3's I think.

The rest were much like the rest of the MK3's with the 256mm setup. "Hub" as such gets the carrier bolted onto it and the actual caliper bolts onto the carrier.

You did not confirm the disk? GTI ran 288mm setup not 280 (the 2.0 and the 1.8 20V ran 280).
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Post by polo'd »

My spares guy must be misinformed then. But i fitted the 280mm discs. mmm. Maybe i should just get the others then to suit the caliper. Even still when out last night made a Beemer **** from 180kph. You should have fun with the heavier guys trying to out break you... I am!!!
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Post by Mk1-fan »

Just one question. Why would you want to uprate the rear brakes. They hardly do anything at all.
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Post by LittleG »

280mm is the common disk the guys are using with the "upgrades". Off the early VR6's.

My braking performance is fine on the 256mm and its a stock 1600 so have never really battled with the brakes. I just love big Disks that fill the wheels. And with mine only running 15's the 280mm Will fill the whole wheel and will look loverly :twisted:

Mk1-fan wrote:Just one question. Why would you want to uprate the rear brakes. They hardly do anything at all.
Yeah not interested in the rear really... Care to confirm the disk sizes for us (and what do decent 280mm and 288mm disks go for from GW)? Do you stock these calipers he speaks of?
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Post by polo'd »

Do the conversion yourself and see. You can feel the whole car dropping down as you brake. Before the nose would drop and the arse become light. Needless to say thats why the wife wife put in an armco... So: bigger brakes and a set of Vmaxx coilovers=a very different car.
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Post by polo'd »

You should be able to get the calipers at scrap yard. Front and back. Just check the rears for leaks. If they're wet some idiot squeezed the **** out of them to get the piston to return not turning it in...
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Post by polo'd »

Mine are 280mm. I paid R114inc each for front and rears
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Post by LittleG »

polo'd wrote:Do the conversion yourself and see. You can feel the whole car dropping down as you brake. Before the nose would drop and the arse become light. Needless to say thats why the wife wife put in an armco... So: bigger brakes and a set of Vmaxx coilovers=a very different car.
Hmmm I have had a few debates here about how much "better" the brakes get with bigger disks. I am not convinced they get much better. Your mods to the suspension etc aid the effect of the big brakes IMHO.

The way I see it is unless you compare the time it takes to cook the brakes (bigger disks will help dissipate the heat better) or your current setup is unable to induce enough force to lock the wheels you not going to gain in one time performance.

Similarly if you have a boosted car that is wheelspinning like crazy (past the threshold the tires can contain and use the energy to move the car foward) by boosting it higher adding more HP (force) to the wheels is not going to make you accelerate much faster because it gets limited by the amount of energy the tires can transfer to the tar.

With my current setup I can stand on the pedal hard enough to induce lockup from some pretty high speeds. Therefore adding the larger area and potential force I can apply to the disk to slow the car down will not enable me to slow it down any faster because once that point is passed and the wheel locks it doesn't matter how much more force the caliper puts on the disk the wheel is already stopped.

If however you running some very sticky slicks etc and no matter how hard you stand on the pedal it won't bite to lockup then yes going bigger will improve your performance.
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Post by SHAUN »

Well im very interested to see what it looks like, as when i phoned nor brake for the 288mm brake upgrade i was told they would need to weld the uprights to accomodate the bigger discs.
2006 E92 335i * Monica
2001 Audi S3 Quattro * Suzie-Q
1999 Jetta 3 20vt 181kw 390nm * Jet-Li
2006 Caddy 1.6 low and slow * Tossa-Caddy
2001 Polo classic 16v ABF Featured * BLUEmotion
1988 Bmw E30 2.9L - Written off
1991 MKII GTI - Sold
1989 MKII CSL - Sold
Saiendra wrote: I cannot argue with you, you bought a BMW out of motorplan...
You clearly have more balls than me.
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Post by polo'd »

Just check GW's prices I have found them to be more than the agents on some things. (Well here anyway)
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Post by SHAUN »

LittleG wrote:
polo'd wrote:Do the conversion yourself and see. You can feel the whole car dropping down as you brake. Before the nose would drop and the arse become light. Needless to say thats why the wife wife put in an armco... So: bigger brakes and a set of Vmaxx coilovers=a very different car.
Hmmm I have had a few debates here about how much "better" the brakes get with bigger disks. I am not convinced they get much better. Your mods to the suspension etc aid the effect of the big brakes IMHO.

The way I see it is unless you compare the time it takes to cook the brakes (bigger disks will help dissipate the heat better) or your current setup is unable to induce enough force to lock the wheels you not going to gain in one time performance.

Similarly if you have a boosted car that is wheelspinning like crazy (past the threshold the tires can contain and use the energy to move the car foward) by boosting it higher adding more HP (force) to the wheels is not going to make you accelerate much faster because it gets limited by the amount of energy the tires can transfer to the tar.

With my current setup I can stand on the pedal hard enough to induce lockup from some pretty high speeds. Therefore adding the larger area and potential force I can apply to the disk to slow the car down will not enable me to slow it down any faster because once that point is passed and the wheel locks it doesn't matter how much more force the caliper puts on the disk the wheel is already stopped.

If however you running some very sticky slicks etc and no matter how hard you stand on the pedal it won't bite to lockup then yes going bigger will improve your performance.
I have to dissagree, have u driven in a mk1 that has the big brake upgrade??? its day and night difference to the stock brakes.
2006 E92 335i * Monica
2001 Audi S3 Quattro * Suzie-Q
1999 Jetta 3 20vt 181kw 390nm * Jet-Li
2006 Caddy 1.6 low and slow * Tossa-Caddy
2001 Polo classic 16v ABF Featured * BLUEmotion
1988 Bmw E30 2.9L - Written off
1991 MKII GTI - Sold
1989 MKII CSL - Sold
Saiendra wrote: I cannot argue with you, you bought a BMW out of motorplan...
You clearly have more balls than me.
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Post by LittleG »

SHAUN wrote:Well im very interested to see what it looks like, as when i phoned nor brake for the 288mm brake upgrade i was told they would need to weld the uprights to accomodate the bigger discs.
I am also interested. I suspect he has taken the whole carrier and caliper off the A4 (which could easily the the same as the VR/G4GTI/A3T) and bolted that onto the Polo Hub...

I asked about bolting the VR carrier onto my existing hubs and seemed possible. I just never found (or really looked all that hard) to find a set to mess around with.

Did get an old 132Kw Disk though which is HUGE. 312mm disk :twisted: which would leave plenty space to make an adapter ala the MK1-> 280mm setups the guys are doing. But it has a very shallow "hat" (like very very shallow) which would put it very close to the rim and will not fit in my 15's :cry:
SHAUN wrote:I have to dissagree, have u driven in a mk1 that has the big brake upgrade??? its day and night difference to the stock brakes.
Doesn't surprise me, in all the discussions here have been against my point of view based on the "difference" felt. MK1 brakes have always been the point of criticism for feel etc So by going bigger the increse in force will change the feel somewhat. Does not adress my question to how going bigger on the disks enable your tires to sustain higher force before locking up :?:
Last edited by LittleG on Wed Nov 07, 2007 11:51 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by SHAUN »

LittleG wrote:Did get an old 132Kw Disk though which is HUGE. 312mm disk :twisted: which would leave plenty space to make an adapter ala the MK1-> 280mm setups the guys are doing. But it has a very shallow "hat" (like very very shallow) which would put it very close to the rim and will not fit in my 15's :cry:
But it would fit in my 17"s :twisted:
2006 E92 335i * Monica
2001 Audi S3 Quattro * Suzie-Q
1999 Jetta 3 20vt 181kw 390nm * Jet-Li
2006 Caddy 1.6 low and slow * Tossa-Caddy
2001 Polo classic 16v ABF Featured * BLUEmotion
1988 Bmw E30 2.9L - Written off
1991 MKII GTI - Sold
1989 MKII CSL - Sold
Saiendra wrote: I cannot argue with you, you bought a BMW out of motorplan...
You clearly have more balls than me.
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Post by nhunter »

Early Mk4 GTI and 2.0 discs are 280mm IIRC
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Post by LittleG »

SHAUN wrote:
LittleG wrote:Did get an old 132Kw Disk though which is HUGE. 312mm disk :twisted: which would leave plenty space to make an adapter ala the MK1-> 280mm setups the guys are doing. But it has a very shallow "hat" (like very very shallow) which would put it very close to the rim and will not fit in my 15's :cry:
But it would fit in my 17"s :twisted:
Probably would, its an old rusted well used disk that I got from a breaker when I asked for a GTI disk that I wanted to use for a mockup to make adapters. We must hookup and you can have it free of charge LOL :lol: 8)
nhunter wrote:Early Mk4 GTI and 2.0 discs are 280mm IIRC


Could well be, thats why I asked MK1-fan to try confirm some sizes.

The way I understood it

Polo / MK3 (and MK2 2.0 16v) run the 256mm setup.
MK3 VR before 96 ran 280mm
96+ VR ran 288mm

1.8 20V A3/G4 ran 280mm
1.8T A3/G4 ran 288mm
132kw G4 and S3 IIRC ran the 312mm disks.
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Post by polo'd »

Stock polo hubs no change I was on a budget.
My car was stock-barring a vernier and filter (air). I always believe that there is an easier way to do things. The big performance suppliers rip the guys in the street. I know it happens. I have my own shop doing general servicing and repairs. The germans thought ahead when they built cars. I have done num,erous conversion on Microbuses and you will be surprised how interchangable parts are between models. Other guys work different to me to. They mod a motor to all **** keep the stock cooling, brakes ect and wonder why they injure themselves on a weekly basis and the thing breaks down evry other day. Safety first-even if it is overkill!!!
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Post by SHAUN »

So what i would then really like to get is 132kw G4 calipers and 312mm discs... :twisted:
2006 E92 335i * Monica
2001 Audi S3 Quattro * Suzie-Q
1999 Jetta 3 20vt 181kw 390nm * Jet-Li
2006 Caddy 1.6 low and slow * Tossa-Caddy
2001 Polo classic 16v ABF Featured * BLUEmotion
1988 Bmw E30 2.9L - Written off
1991 MKII GTI - Sold
1989 MKII CSL - Sold
Saiendra wrote: I cannot argue with you, you bought a BMW out of motorplan...
You clearly have more balls than me.
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Post by polo'd »

If guys are looking for bolt on kits Im happy to oblige- for a small fee... :lol:
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Post by SHAUN »

polo'd wrote:If guys are looking for bolt on kits Im happy to oblige- for a small fee... :lol:
well then, start cracking and get prices.
2006 E92 335i * Monica
2001 Audi S3 Quattro * Suzie-Q
1999 Jetta 3 20vt 181kw 390nm * Jet-Li
2006 Caddy 1.6 low and slow * Tossa-Caddy
2001 Polo classic 16v ABF Featured * BLUEmotion
1988 Bmw E30 2.9L - Written off
1991 MKII GTI - Sold
1989 MKII CSL - Sold
Saiendra wrote: I cannot argue with you, you bought a BMW out of motorplan...
You clearly have more balls than me.
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Post by Mk1-fan »

LittleG wrote:
SHAUN wrote:
LittleG wrote:Did get an old 132Kw Disk though which is HUGE. 312mm disk :twisted: which would leave plenty space to make an adapter ala the MK1-> 280mm setups the guys are doing. But it has a very shallow "hat" (like very very shallow) which would put it very close to the rim and will not fit in my 15's :cry:
But it would fit in my 17"s :twisted:
Probably would, its an old rusted well used disk that I got from a breaker when I asked for a GTI disk that I wanted to use for a mockup to make adapters. We must hookup and you can have it free of charge LOL :lol: 8)
nhunter wrote:Early Mk4 GTI and 2.0 discs are 280mm IIRC


Could well be, thats why I asked MK1-fan to try confirm some sizes.

The way I understood it

Polo / MK3 (and MK2 2.0 16v) run the 256mm setup.
MK3 VR before 96 ran 280mm
96+ VR ran 288mm

1.8 20V A3/G4 ran 280mm
1.8T A3/G4 ran 288mm
132kw G4 and S3 IIRC ran the 312mm disks.
Correct
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