Engine choice for probable Jetta 3

[panic-mechanic]

I had built 1.8 20vt's into mk1, citi, mk2, and mk3 shells.
It is literally a bolt in on mk2 and mk3. Yes you have to build boost pipes and downpipe and yes it is better to upgrade the brakes. Yes you will run the biggest clutch that was available on those boxes. But driveshaft and gearbox is no issue. If you want to upgrade the diff to remove the rivets and put bolts in. But there is much less isuues than dub rox is foreseeing or professing and is a very nice conversion. In the mk3 i used a T28 turno - it made 200wheel hp at 0.8 bar and my wife drove it as a daily.
Honestly a VR is much overrated as a power source. In standard form they make 135hp on my dyno. The 1.8t will make a lot more than that in even stock form and more torque for much less weight to carry around.
There is only ever one reason for a VR and that is the sound. For the rest it sucks.
Stock ABF is within 5-10 Hp from there and only about 15 nm short.
A mk3 cli in neat condition is also quie hard to find these days.

[Bismarck]

Mk3 Jetta CLI (2 litre 8 valve motor) = 1112kg. I can confirm this as a friend used to have one and it was weighed at his works weighbridge and it had an almost full tank of fuel.
My Mk2 Jetta with a full tank of fuel, sound install, etc = 1080kg. (weighed on the same weighbridge).

So about 32kg difference, not that big of a difference as most people think.

I had an A2 Jetta CLi and an A3 Jetta CLX, both had the 1800 engine - and the power delivery, performance and handling were worlds apart.

Please explain the difference if you don't mind?

[Bismarck]

a lot on that a lot more so for the jetta 3 or golf 3

Jetta or Golf 3 20vconversion has been done plenty of times with success.
Keep in mind that the 3 chassis is much heavier than the 2.

The last revision's of the 1.8t 20v can easily see 160kw + 350nm+ ATF with minimal mods ,slap in a set of rods and you'll have a 300kw capable motor

think i am sold on that option,tell me about the fuel tank if i end up with a carb model in the meantime,does it need to be changed to FI fuel tank??

Yeah the 20v is also cheaper than a ABF , There's a bit of extra work when going 20v though , like boost pipes and intercooler.

Things like management and tuning would've applied to either motor

Best you get a FI tank, pump must be in tank to avoid Fuel starvation and will be more reliable long term.

Price estimation on FI tank with installation if i end up with a carb model?

[Bismarck]

I had built 1.8 20vt's into mk1, citi, mk2, and mk3 shells.
It is literally a bolt in on mk2 and mk3. Yes you have to build boost pipes and downpipe and yes it is better to upgrade the brakes. Yes you will run the biggest clutch that was available on those boxes. But driveshaft and gearbox is no issue. If you want to upgrade the diff to remove the rivets and put bolts in. But there is much less isuues than dub rox is foreseeing or professing and is a very nice conversion. In the mk3 i used a T28 turno - it made 200wheel hp at 0.8 bar and my wife drove it as a daily.
Honestly a VR is much overrated as a power source. In standard form they make 135hp on my dyno. The 1.8t will make a lot more than that in even stock form and more torque for much less weight to carry around.
There is only ever one reason for a VR and that is the sound. For the rest it sucks.
Stock ABF is within 5-10 Hp from there and only about 15 nm short.
A mk3 cli in neat condition is also quie hard to find these days.

Thanks Panic,i can see that you have a whole lot of experience with these type of conversions,care to share list of accesories for this type of modification? Will a FFZ gearbox cope with a mildly tuned 1.8 20vt? I have done a 2.0 8v ABA crossflow with flowed head(by Sybie Coetzee) & 276 billet cam with 63mm Viper SS exhaust in
a Golf 1 1.4i moons ago,was making 90 Kw & 180 Nm on the wheels with dictator & FFZ gearbox,was strong for what it was @ that stage..Motor run eventually on some fuel starvation issues @
high speed on bends etc,then got hold of some G4 Gti injectors which i could never install & uprated fuel-pump cause some IDIOT stole the car & torched it up for spares,anycase your input would be highly appreciated!

[Bismarck]

I had built 1.8 20vt's into mk1, citi, mk2, and mk3 shells.
It is literally a bolt in on mk2 and mk3. Yes you have to build boost pipes and downpipe and yes it is better to upgrade the brakes. Yes you will run the biggest clutch that was available on those boxes. But driveshaft and gearbox is no issue. If you want to upgrade the diff to remove the rivets and put bolts in. But there is much less isuues than dub rox is foreseeing or professing and is a very nice conversion. In the mk3 i used a T28 turno - it made 200wheel hp at 0.8 bar and my wife drove it as a daily.
Honestly a VR is much overrated as a power source. In standard form they make 135hp on my dyno. The 1.8t will make a lot more than that in even stock form and more torque for much less weight to carry around.
There is only ever one reason for a VR and that is the sound. For the rest it sucks.
Stock ABF is within 5-10 Hp from there and only about 15 nm short.
A mk3 cli in neat condition is also quie hard to find these days.

Thanks Panic,i can see that you have a whole lot of experience with these type of conversions,care to share list of accesories for this type of modification? Will a FFZ gearbox cope with a mildly tuned 1.8 20vt? I have done a 2.0 8v ABA crossflow with flowed head(by Sybie Coetzee) & 276 billet cam with TnT 4-1 Branch & 63mm Viper SS exhaust in
a Golf 1 1.4i moons ago,was making 90 Kw & 180 Nm on the wheels with dictator & FFZ gearbox,was strong for what it was @ that stage..Motor run eventually on some fuel starvation issues @
high speed on bends etc,then got hold of some G4 Gti injectors which i could never install & uprated fuel-pump cause some IDIOT stole the car & torched it up for spares,anycase your input would be highly appreciated!

[Supervan II]

So about 32kg difference, not that big of a difference as most people think.

I had an A2 Jetta CLi and an A3 Jetta CLX, both had the 1800 engine - and the power delivery, performance and handling were worlds apart.

Please explain the difference if you don't mind?

OK. IMHO only, of course:
1986 Jetta A2 CLi - 185/60HR14 wheels/tyres:
a) Handled better and seats kept you in place;
b) Accelerated faster, better throttle response;
c) Only had air-con - no power steering, sunroof or electric windows! that could go wrong;
d) Overtaking was better;
e) Braking was better;
f) Headlights were OK;
g) Mine still had the ¼ window in the front door which placed the side mirror too far back.



1999 Jetta A3 CLX - 195/50HR15 wheels/tyres:
a) Engine was too weak for the body, but was OK once up to speed;
b) Plenty of creature comforts: P/S, E/W, S/R, but ALL the electric windows gave problems;
c) Ride was more comfortable;
d) Headlights were absolutely inadequate at night;



Notes:
a) Both cars owned for around 10 years each;
b) Both cars were bought 2nd-hand/1 year old from a VW dealer;
c) Both were serviced at dealer whilst under factory warranty, and thereafter at the same independent mecchie;
d) Fuel consumption was basically the same - the A2 was definitely driven "more briskly";
e) Tyres: whereas I absolutely loved the Pirellis (185/60HR14) that I had on the A2, the Pirellis (195/50HR15) on the A3 were the worst tyres I had ever fitted to any car that I had ever owned!


Verdict: The A2 - overall, probably the best VW ever made! (and I also owned the A1 1983 Golf GTi before the A2 and the A1 1985 Jetta GLi while I had the A2 - which says a lot!)

Now, if I could only find an unmolested 1992 big-bumper!!!! (Preferably in red!)

This is all I can think of offhand, but feel free to ask if you want specifics.

[Bismarck]

So about 32kg difference, not that big of a difference as most people think.

I had an A2 Jetta CLi and an A3 Jetta CLX, both had the 1800 engine - and the power delivery, performance and handling were worlds apart.

Please explain the difference if you don't mind?

OK. IMHO only, of course:
1986 Jetta A2 CLi - 185/60HR14 wheels/tyres:
a) Handled better and seats kept you in place;
b) Accelerated faster, better throttle response;
c) Only had air-con - no power steering, sunroof or electric windows! that could go wrong;
d) Overtaking was better;
e) Braking was better;
f) Headlights were OK;
g) Mine still had the ¼ window in the front door which placed the side mirror too far back.



1999 Jetta A3 CLX - 195/50HR15 wheels/tyres:
a) Engine was too weak for the body, but was OK once up to speed;
b) Plenty of creature comforts: P/S, E/W, S/R, but ALL the electric windows gave problems;
c) Ride was more comfortable;
d) Headlights were absolutely inadequate at night;



Notes:
a) Both cars owned for around 10 years each;
b) Both cars were bought 2nd-hand/1 year old from a VW dealer;
c) Both were serviced at dealer whilst under factory warranty, and thereafter at the same independent mecchie;
d) Fuel consumption was basically the same - the A2 was definitely driven "more briskly";
e) Tyres: whereas I absolutely loved the Pirellis (185/60HR14) that I had on the A2, the Pirellis (195/50HR15) on the A3 were the worst tyres I had ever fitted to any car that I had ever owned!


Verdict: The A2 - overall, probably the best VW ever made! (and I also owned the A1 1983 Golf GTi before the A2 and the A1 1985 Jetta GLi while I had the A2 - which says a lot!)

Now, if I could only find an unmolested 1992 big-bumper!!!! (Preferably in red!)

This is all I can think of offhand, but feel free to ask if you want specifics.

Thank you for all the feedback,much appreciated..that is why i joined this forum,to get all this first hand experience from members that can say"been there,done that"..or as another member already indicated:this is an era maybe forgotten when cars built for driving pleasure & not Computer programmed platforms with 1.0 engines upfront..now i have more to think about & digest

[flash23]

sorry to hijack but im interested in the idea of a 1.8t 20v in a mk3 also

in terms of the cluster, would it be possible to make it compatible with the current cluster or will another cluster have to be used?

im sure the MFA wont work but temp gauges and such shouldnt be too hectic right?

[ICE King]

Jetta or Golf 3 20vconversion has been done plenty of times with success.
Keep in mind that the 3 chassis is much heavier than the 2.

The last revision's of the 1.8t 20v can easily see 160kw + 350nm+ ATF with minimal mods ,slap in a set of rods and you'll have a 300kw capable motor

think i am sold on that option,tell me about the fuel tank if i end up with a carb model in the meantime,does it need to be changed to FI fuel tank??

Yeah the 20v is also cheaper than a ABF , There's a bit of extra work when going 20v though , like boost pipes and intercooler.

Things like management and tuning would've applied to either motor

Best you get a FI tank, pump must be in tank to avoid Fuel starvation and will be more reliable long term.

Price estimation on FI tank with installation if i end up with a carb model?

Can pickup a secondhand FI tank for +-1000 bucks, obviously purchasing in good faith that the pump is in working condition but personally I replace the pump since you'll have no history of it.

To make this project easier , get a 1994+ Mk3 , They were all fuel injected and vented disc upfront etc.... (stand corrected if it was 1994+)

[ICE King]

sorry to hijack but im interested in the idea of a 1.8t 20v in a mk3 also

in terms of the cluster, would it be possible to make it compatible with the current cluster or will another cluster have to be used?

im sure the MFA wont work but temp gauges and such shouldn't be too hectic right?

Can retrofit those things with a aftermarket management.

[Supervan II]

To make this project easier , get a 1994+ Mk3 , They were all fuel injected and vented disc upfront etc.... (stand corrected if it was 1994+)

1995-on, IIRC.

[ICE King]

To make this project easier , get a 1994+ Mk3 , They were all fuel injected and vented disc upfront etc.... (stand corrected if it was 1994+)

1995-on, IIRC.

Thanks Supervan

[panic-mechanic]

Original cluster will work fine. these were all pre canbus days. Much easier to make things work.

[Bismarck]

think i am sold on that option,tell me about the fuel tank if i end up with a carb model in the meantime,does it need to be changed to FI fuel tank??

Yeah the 20v is also cheaper than a ABF , There's a bit of extra work when going 20v though , like boost pipes and intercooler.

Things like management and tuning would've applied to either motor

Best you get a FI tank, pump must be in tank to avoid Fuel starvation and will be more reliable long term.

Price estimation on FI tank with installation if i end up with a carb model?

Can pickup a secondhand FI tank for +-1000 bucks, obviously purchasing in good faith that the pump is in working condition but personally I replace the pump since you'll have no history of it.

To make this project easier , get a 1994+ Mk3 , They were all fuel injected and vented disc upfront etc.... (stand corrected if it was 1994+)

Thank you will keep this in mind when i start looking for one in around 2 weeks time

[Bismarck]

Original cluster will work fine. these were all pre canbus days. Much easier to make things work.

Panic,do you have an workshop in Benoni if i may ask,as i would like to pass by later personally & get to talk about this conversion etc if u dont mind?

[Jetta2]

Panic,do you have an workshop in Benoni if i may ask,as i would like to pass by later personally & get to talk about this conversion etc if u dont mind?

viewtopic.php?f=141&t=199779

[Bismarck]

Panic,do you have an workshop in Benoni if i may ask,as i would like to pass by later personally & get to talk about this conversion etc if u dont mind?

viewtopic.php?f=141&t=199779

Sharp,thank you for that link very informative number added thanks to all for information,will keep you posted!!

[Bismarck]

Morning All.
Just a Quik question if Panic or anybody else can advice me as i am counting down the days for my hunt for the Jetta 3 hopefully,
which 1.8 20vt engine transplant will be suited more since there is a lot of engine code's available for this motor either vw or audi,is it the AGU/APU as there are so many & are a bit confused which one to buy when the funds are available,i believe i read somewhere u need the externally mounted water pump drive/feature??

Regards
H.

[thepot]

viewtopic.php?f=11&t=204232

Check this rides thread

[Bismarck]

viewtopic.php?f=11&t=204232

Check this rides thread

Thanks man for this thread update& well done to the owner
so it seems to me that should you want to use the G4 Gti Agu the cambelt mounting needs change(if you stay with fitted gearbox in car&only that one) for the turbo& downpipe to fit,

now what about the APU or even other engine codes as there seems to be quite a lot of them around presumably from all the years manufactured?

[panic-mechanic]

They will all fit.
Agu is external waterpump older style motor but into your platform it really does not matter. You will have to change the thottle body on the later motors asntheybwere drive by wire but you can use any mp9 style throttle body, it's a straight swop

[Bismarck]

They will all fit.
Agu is external waterpump older style motor but into your platform it really does not matter. You will have to change the thottle body on the later motors asntheybwere drive by wire but you can use any mp9 style throttle body, it's a straight swop

Thank you Panic,at least there is a lot of choices now when it comes to the 1.8 20vt engine..will keep you posted

[Bismarck]

Good day All.
Just an update,i managed to find a Jetta 3 Clx 1.8 carb-model which suits my finances right now..
As for the engine i am in a bit of 2 minds now as the (1.8 20vt will have to wait a bit for now )
i have a choice either to refresh it for now,or change to a 2.0 8v 2e,agg or ady engine,will the current carb inlet manifold with carb fit to either
of the later mentioned engines & will it be a straight swap as for dizzy etc,sorry if this was asked before just would appreciate any feedback if
someone has done this before??

regards
H.

[missioner]

Long block motors have a larger distributor opening than the short block, so to run the 1.8 distributor in the 2.0l you will need a "spacer" ring to get it to fit properly.

A blank off plate will also be needed for the inlet ports on the 2.0l to close off the injector indents.

You will also need the 2.0l engine mount rubber from the later Mk2 or mk3, it's shorter than the 1.6/8 one. This is to help keep the gear linkages straight and working and also so that the front engine mount on the cross member doesn't fail prematurely.

If you have those items then it's mostly plug and play, some parts will have to be kept from the old motor, the vehicle specific ones that are unique to the model. These you will see as the transfer takes place.

Good luck

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[Dub rox]

A blank off plate will also be needed for the inlet ports on the 2.0l to close off the injector indents.

If memory serves me right, i think it's the size of a 10 or 20c. Knew a guy who did alot of experimenting on heads and used these with sidies.


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