Crank gear supposed to run free on crankshaft?

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Crank gear supposed to run free on crankshaft?

Post by andrew37scott »

Hi guys,

I had issues with my VW polo 1.6 (CLS motor) then decided to overhaul the motor.
Car starts after timing is set then dies. I noticed my crank gear isn't fixed to the crank. It runs like a bearing on the crank and only locks once I torque my crank pulley. Is this normal or do I need to press a new gear on the crank?

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Re: Crank gear supposed to run free on crankshaft?

Post by PapaJo »

The crank gear should have a key slot and it should definitely be torqued. You might have stripped the key, by not toruqing it down. Take the crank gear off and check fot damage.
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Re: Crank gear supposed to run free on crankshaft?

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PapaJo wrote:The crank gear should have a key slot and it should definitely be torqued. You might have stripped the key, by not toruqing it down. Take the crank gear off and check fot damage.
Thanks for the info, car is currently at mechanic. I've also noticed the cams does not have any keys which is very strange for me. Only way to secure them is to tighten them

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Re: Crank gear supposed to run free on crankshaft?

Post by missioner »

Not true on this engine and the rest in its family, ie: CLP, CAAVA/B, 1.2TSi, etc.

The crank and cam sprockets are known as interference fit and are quite literally held in place by the bolts that hold them. Many modern multivalve motors are the same these days from nearly all makes of vehicles.

There is a special tool to hold all of it in place prior to being torqued that ensures the timing is correct.

If the motor was assembled without the tools used there is a large chance the timing is out, without the rear main seal being a factor. The seal houses the crank speed sensor and must also be timed.
PapaJo wrote:The crank gear should have a key slot and it should definitely be torqued. You might have stripped the key, by not toruqing it down. Take the crank gear off and check fot damage.
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Re: Crank gear supposed to run free on crankshaft?

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missioner wrote:Not true on this engine and the rest in its family, ie: CLP, CAAVA/B, 1.2TSi, etc.

The crank and cam sprockets are known as interference fit and are quite literally held in place by the bolts that hold them. Many modern multivalve motors are the same these days from nearly all makes of vehicles.

There is a special tool to hold all of it in place prior to being torqued that ensures the timing is correct.

If the motor was assembled without the tools used there is a large chance the timing is out, without the rear main seal being a factor. The seal houses the crank speed sensor and must also be timed.
PapaJo wrote:The crank gear should have a key slot and it should definitely be torqued. You might have stripped the key, by not toruqing it down. Take the crank gear off and check fot damage.
Thank you for your reply, this had me going crazy as Google didn't have any information on this crank.

The rear main seal was fitted and align with the eye, new seal and old gear as I didn't have the tool to press the gear on.

Is there a way to realign the rear main without pulling the gearbox, trying my luck here.

So many obstacles with this motor and getting tired of working on it every day, at least I'm expanding my knowledge and know exactly what was done on the motor.


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Re: Crank gear supposed to run free on crankshaft?

Post by PapaJo »

Only way is to remove the gearbox and most likely a new seal and ring too as it might get damaged when removed.
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Re: Crank gear supposed to run free on crankshaft?

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Okay, so mechanic didn't start working on the car yet. I started the car. It revs up and all of a sudden EPC error appears and when I give gas, it does nothing, just iddles.

Switched off and on again. Started fine, revved up and all of a sudden the motor dies again.

Tried starting again, nothing happens. Unscrewed the oil cap and when I try to start, the cam chain doesn't move at all but motor swings.

Crank bolt came loose again, causing the gear to run free on crankshaft. Hope nothing got hurt. Mechanic will do proper timing with toolkit.

Please see one of the video links attached, does this sound like timing or the speed sensor gear that might be out?

https://youtu.be/x9wv8RAWKdo



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Re: Crank gear supposed to run free on crankshaft?

Post by Ashveer03 »

U better hope it's not an interference engine - if it is, chances of damage on an incorrectly timed engine are high.

If im not mistaken, Engines that normally have these keyless type gears normally use tty bolts. So u might want to replace them as well and then torque to spec.

I have seen quite a few loose pulleys break the key and damage the crank. (Not relevant to this post)
Get urs checked out properly before fitting everything back together as it was spinning freely and probably did cause some wear.

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Re: Crank gear supposed to run free on crankshaft?

Post by andrew37scott »

I tried doing a search but couldn't find whether or not mine is an interference engine. Let's hope not

Thanks for the advice everyone.

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Re: Crank gear supposed to run free on crankshaft?

Post by missioner »

Sadly it is.

The reason I know is because of the first time I got to open a CLP/S and the reason I own the timing tool.

Previous poster mentioned the crank bolt is a torque to yield bolt. This means it can only be used once or maybe twice before you bin it. It also means that it has an angle torque on it and a staged tightening procedure. I can't remember the exact torque right now, but I'm sure some internetting will get you something to go on.

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Re: Crank gear supposed to run free on crankshaft?

Post by panic-mechanic »

Those bolts are also torque to yield. Ie torque x-amount and then a number of degrees. Usually Something like 100nm and 90 degrees. That alos means you have to replace the bolt after use so everytime you have tightened it you must put a new one in otherwise it will just not hold.
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Re: Crank gear supposed to run free on crankshaft?

Post by andrew37scott »

Okay so the motor is open again, bad news..... Valves bent. Marks on pistons as well.

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Re: Crank gear supposed to run free on crankshaft?

Post by PapaJo »

andrew37scott wrote: Sun Sep 23, 2018 12:42 pm Okay so the motor is open again, bad news..... Valves bent. Marks on pistons as well.

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Eish, get it done right this time with new bolts that gets torqued to the correct spec.
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Re: Crank gear supposed to run free on crankshaft?

Post by andrew37scott »

Car finally starts up after timing was set correctly. Still had a missfire. Took out gearbox and replaced the ring gear with original one and original crankshaft Seal that comes with it. Now it struggles to start and having iddling problems. Changed crank sensor but little improvement. Noticed my oil breather that is also connected to the intake had a tear in the diaphragm. Hopefully this will sort out the issue. If not, I'll replace all sensors one by one.

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Re: Crank gear supposed to run free on crankshaft?

Post by Ashveer03 »

Replacing all the sensors for no reason makes no sense. Why not send the car to a mechanic who knows what they are doing, it will probably save u alot of time and money.

If this engines crank sensor receives a signal from the rear main seal like the BAH and BLM engines then u most probably did not align the seal properly. The symptoms u posted seems very similar to the misaligned rear main seal on the bah/blm engines.

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Re: Crank gear supposed to run free on crankshaft?

Post by andrew37scott »

Thanks, the car is currently at the mechanic. The gear was removed and reinstalled. Currently suspecting a a faulty PCV valve.
Ashveer03 wrote:Replacing all the sensors for no reason makes no sense. Why not send the car to a mechanic who knows what they are doing, it will probably save u alot of time and money.

If this engines crank sensor receives a signal from the rear main seal like the BAH and BLM engines then u most probably did not align the seal properly. The symptoms u posted seems very similar to the misaligned rear main seal on the bah/blm engines.

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Re: Crank gear supposed to run free on crankshaft?

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Hi guys, I feel like bothering when asking questions on forum and that it might be stupid questions.
Anyways.
The mechanic sent my head in and got it back. Installed it. Timing was set with timing tool. Car still had a miss. He checked my rear main seal gear and sensor. Used my old seal and gear as he does not trust the supplier and my seal was still in a great condition.
Aligned the seal and gear according to timing.also changed crank sensor with one he had.
Car struggled to start but eventually started with the low revs dropping and rising.
He changed my PCV diaphragm as it had cracks and some torns in.
Car now starts better but is pinging on low revs.
Did compression test and compression is fine.
Any idea what might cause the pinging on low revs?

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Re: Crank gear supposed to run free on crankshaft?

Post by Donavan »

incorrect ignition timing would be my guess
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Post by panic-mechanic »

Yup. timing ring not in the right place. AGAIN / Still. Maybe his TDC reference mark is incorrect or even the cam timing is out.
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Re: Crank gear supposed to run free on crankshaft?

Post by andrew37scott »

I'm thinking the same thing, but how do I tell a mechanic how he should do his job.
He used special tools, so are there a possibility that timing on ring or cam could still be out?

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Post by panic-mechanic »

The special tools has a special way to use them as well. They cater for several models and if you pick the incorrect alignment mark / pin then you install the ring in the incorrect place. The fact that it is pinging should tell himself that he screwed it up and should try again.
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Re: Crank gear supposed to run free on crankshaft?

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So finally got my car back.
The final issue I now have is that the car's iddling sounds a bit rough, almost like my cams was cut. Sort of missing but only on idle and revs up smoothly, car iddles at around 600rpm.

Timing was done again, rear main seal gear and timing chain, issue was still there. Changed PCV valve as it had vacuum symptoms. It was a bit better. Then my crank seal popped. By this time the timing was done several times with correct tools.
Removed head and checked lifters. Decided to go for OEM lifters this time, issue still persists.

Did pressure test, oil pressure tests, checked coil packs and feul injectors.
Swopped sensors with another car to eliminate sensor issues.
Still not winning, mechanic Suggested to replace rear main seal and pickup with OEM product but I decided to go against it and took my car.

So today I took it to another mechanic. I removed oil cap while iddling, (one of those stupid last resorts when you are moedeloos) noticed that there is a huge amount of vacuum in the crankcase which didn't happen before that pulls my cap back in. Noticed before that suction was high on my dipstick but not that great.
When removing be the oil cap, the revs goes up, car got EPC error and went into limp mode.

So does all this comes to a faulty new PCV valve? Or maybe that oil catchment compartment somehow?

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Re: Crank gear supposed to run free on crankshaft?

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andrew37scott wrote:So finally got my car back.
The final issue I now have is that the car's iddling sounds a bit rough, almost like my cams was cut. Sort of missing but only on idle and revs up smoothly, car iddles at around 600rpm.

Timing was done again, rear main seal gear and timing chain, issue was still there. Changed PCV valve as it had vacuum symptoms. It was a bit better. Then my crank seal popped. By this time the timing was done several times with correct tools.
Removed head and checked lifters. Decided to go for OEM lifters this time, issue still persists.

Did pressure test, oil pressure tests, checked coil packs and feul injectors.
Swopped sensors with another car to eliminate sensor issues.
Still not winning, mechanic Suggested to replace rear main seal and pickup with OEM product but I decided to go against it and took my car.

So today I took it to another mechanic. I removed oil cap while iddling, (one of those stupid last resorts when you are moedeloos) noticed that there is a huge amount of vacuum in the crankcase which didn't happen before that pulls my cap back in. Noticed before that suction was high on my dipstick but not that great.
When removing be the oil cap, the revs goes up, car got EPC error and went into limp mode.

So does all this comes to a faulty new PCV valve? Or maybe that oil catchment compartment somehow?

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Forgot to mention that I did not change these parts myself including the PCV valve, the original one was torn. Maybe this nee aftermarket one is a faulty one, I'll inspect it tomorrow, any suggestions on how to diagnose a faulty PCV valve based on my symptoms?

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Re: Crank gear supposed to run free on crankshaft?

Post by Ashveer03 »

Yasis this car is giving u grief. If u don't mind me asking how much did u spend on it already?

I don't have any experience on this engine, so I'm not quite sure how to test this design of pcv..

But generally at idle a pcv should be partially opened so that the crankcase is not under hectic vacuum, where else on acceleration it should be open full so that the crankcase can vent properly back into the intake.

U could have a pcv that's stuck open, hence the crankcase is under excessive vacuum which will cause the car to run lean at idle and partial throttle (shitty idle, a misfire, hesitation, etc).

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Re: Crank gear supposed to run free on crankshaft?

Post by andrew37scott »

Luckily the parts wasn't that expensive. But all together one hell of a ride. I'm thinking about 20k on parts and labour.

I'm also thinking it's a stuck open PCV valve. I'll get back to you on my findings later.
Ashveer03 wrote:Yasis this car is giving u grief. If u don't mind me asking how much did u spend on it already?

I don't have any experience on this engine, so I'm not quite sure how to test this design of pcv..

But generally at idle a pcv should be partially opened so that the crankcase is not under hectic vacuum, where else on acceleration it should be open full so that the crankcase can vent properly back into the intake.

U could have a pcv that's stuck open, hence the crankcase is under excessive vacuum which will cause the car to run lean at idle and partial throttle (shitty idle, a misfire, hesitation, etc).

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