AIR to water and air to air Intercoolers

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FrancoisMK2
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AIR to water and air to air Intercoolers

Post by FrancoisMK2 » Thu Feb 22, 2018 1:09 pm

Hi Everyone.
Been a while since i have been online.

I have been sitting and thinking about tuning turbo cars and the excess heat generated by pushing a stock frame (or hybrid turbo setup)
Generally causing detonation because of higher air intake temps, lower air density etc etc.

Instead of using chemical intercooling (meth combinations of both water and meth) to raise your power potential, why has no one tried using both a Air to air intercooler followed by a water to air intercooler to bring intake temps back down closer to ambient temp.

Running a water/meth system requires a pump and reservoir anyway, complicated electronics, refills if used daily.
Surely using a air-air then running through a water-air cooler then into the motor should bring temps down enough not to have to use water injection ?

Yes you need a extra heat exchanger (radiator) but most cars have enough space to move the engine's radiator back and to slip in a 1" thick radiator in front of the existing radiator.

Any Thoughts on why this have not been tried before ?
As I lay rubber down the street.
I pray for traction I can keep, but if I spin
and begin to slide, please dear God protect my ride.
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Re: AIR to water and air to air Intercoolers

Post by panic-mechanic » Thu Feb 22, 2018 1:37 pm

Plumbing complications probably. You have not really had a good look at a modern packaged VW if you think you can slip a 1 inch radiator in between an already front mounted cooler plus aircon condensor plus a radiator. You can barely slip a plastic sheet in extra nevermind another radiator.
So although that might work on the sportage it is a nightmare on anything golf 5 onwards.
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Re: AIR to water and air to air Intercoolers

Post by FrancoisMK2 » Thu Feb 22, 2018 1:49 pm

Space might be an issue yes, i have not looked that much into the VW's but looking at cars like the newer gen 3 series bmw's there is shed loads of space.

But in theory it setup should work and there is no need for constant refills if the car is daily driven.
As I lay rubber down the street.
I pray for traction I can keep, but if I spin
and begin to slide, please dear God protect my ride.
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Re: AIR to water and air to air Intercoolers

Post by Jetta2 » Thu Feb 22, 2018 2:02 pm

Something like this will be way easier and plenty cheaper to just get a decent sized reservoir for the water/meth.

I have a buddy who has a Scooby WRX STI with water/meth injection and he tossed the stock 4.8 litre tank that came with the kit and fitted a nice big 26 litre tank in the boot. He fills is about once a month and the car is daily driven and he does not drive like a granny either. Compared to once a week or sometimes twice a week with the old tank.
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Re: AIR to water and air to air Intercoolers

Post by G-spot » Thu Feb 22, 2018 2:16 pm

Well my first observation would be that both air - air and water- air intercoolers can only bring the temps down to ambient

WMI can bring it down 5/7deg below ambient
A decent core intercooler can bring temps down very close to ambient anyway, So its plenty effort for not really much gain
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Re: AIR to water and air to air Intercoolers

Post by FrancoisMK2 » Thu Feb 22, 2018 2:18 pm

Jetta2 wrote:Something like this will be way easier and plenty cheaper to just get a decent sized reservoir for the water/meth.

I have a buddy who has a Scooby WRX STI with water/meth injection and he tossed the stock 4.8 litre tank that came with the kit and fitted a nice big 26 litre tank in the boot. He fills is about once a month and the car is daily driven and he does not drive like a granny either. Compared to once a week or sometimes twice a week with the old tank.
But what if you live in cape town :crazy: :lol: :troll:
As I lay rubber down the street.
I pray for traction I can keep, but if I spin
and begin to slide, please dear God protect my ride.
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Re: AIR to water and air to air Intercoolers

Post by FrancoisMK2 » Thu Feb 22, 2018 2:22 pm

G-spot wrote:Well my first observation would be that both air - air and water- air intercoolers can only bring the temps down to ambient

WMI can bring it down 5/7deg below ambient
A decent core intercooler can bring temps down very close to ambient anyway, So its plenty effort for not really much gain
Ah i see, i was under the influence that the air to air intercoolers don't bring the air intake temps even close to ambient temp not being as efficient as water to air coolers.

In that case like someone mentioned earlier using water/meth with a larger tank might be the easier way forward.
As I lay rubber down the street.
I pray for traction I can keep, but if I spin
and begin to slide, please dear God protect my ride.
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Re: AIR to water and air to air Intercoolers

Post by Killerwatt » Thu Feb 22, 2018 2:28 pm

There really isn't any merit for both an air/air and an air/water intercooler. A decently sized unit of either type can bring temperatures down to ambient.
Air/water if done right does produce a lower pressure drop so your turbo works a little less hard.

Cooling the charge air is only half the benefit of WMI. You actually want some droplets to make it into the combustion chamber. This allows cooling during the compression stroke which improves knock resistance.
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Re: AIR to water and air to air Intercoolers

Post by FrancoisMK2 » Thu Feb 22, 2018 2:34 pm

Killerwatt wrote:There really isn't any merit for both an air/air and an air/water intercooler. A decently sized unit of either type can bring temperatures down to ambient.
Air/water if done right does produce a lower pressure drop so your turbo works a little less hard.

Cooling the charge air is only half the benefit of WMI. You actually want some droplets to make it into the combustion chamber. This allows cooling during the compression stroke which improves knock resistance.
And with methanol content it also boosts octane yes. I am aware of all its benefits and would prefer it, however let say you are on a long road and your water/meth mix runs out and you are in the middle of nowhere.
Are there ways for the ECU to detect this and pull ignition timing or boost so that you don't end up grenading your engine.
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I pray for traction I can keep, but if I spin
and begin to slide, please dear God protect my ride.
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Re: AIR to water and air to air Intercoolers

Post by Killerwatt » Thu Feb 22, 2018 2:45 pm

If you run out of meth, then just drive home out of boost. WMI will only benefit you once you get your boost level high enough to not achieve minimum best timing. If this threshold is 0.5bar for example, then driving at part throttle or a boost setting below this will have not detrimental effect on your engine.
If you do drive hard then most modern ECUs will pull up to 12 degrees of timing to protect your engine.
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Re: AIR to water and air to air Intercoolers

Post by FrancoisMK2 » Thu Feb 22, 2018 2:59 pm

Thanks for the info guys.
Makes sense yes. My main concern for thinking of using both is basically to save the engine from going pop when running high amounts of boost and a higher power potential.
So the ideal setup would be a water to air cooler with enough capacity not to heat soak with added WMI and larger tank and a decent ECU with some engine protection built into it.

On a side note, has anyone here used or know of someone using the new G25 - 660 Garrett turbo.
From the claims it is a GT25 sized turbo capable of 660hp.

Find it hard to believe but if its true and their claims are close enough then a 2JZ GTE setup running 2 of those snails will be epic and have decent spool times and enough top end not to drop off.

Or even a good aftermarket and upgrade for the 2.0 or 1.8 turbo lumps.
As I lay rubber down the street.
I pray for traction I can keep, but if I spin
and begin to slide, please dear God protect my ride.
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Re: AIR to water and air to air Intercoolers

Post by panic-mechanic » Thu Feb 22, 2018 3:37 pm

well you could run two maps and let it switch to a lower boost slower timing map once the tank is empty if you are using a map switchable aftermarket management.
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'07 Audi A4 2l TDI
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Re: AIR to water and air to air Intercoolers

Post by FrancoisMK2 » Thu Feb 22, 2018 3:54 pm

Did not think of that, yes as far as i know most meth systems have a warning light when the fluid gets low...
That 12v signal could be programmed to a GPO on the ECU to switch to a different map setting possibly with the right ECU.
Panic you are a genius haha.
As I lay rubber down the street.
I pray for traction I can keep, but if I spin
and begin to slide, please dear God protect my ride.
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