2E 20 Valve stroker build idea?

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ChrisMaxx
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2E 20 Valve stroker build idea?

Post by ChrisMaxx »

Hey guys. Having recently gone through a wild change of scenery, I decided to plan I build I want to do for a bit of a toy.

2E long block (would an ADY work?)
1.9 TDi crankshaft 95.5 stroke
Combi Caravelle pistons 83mm
Making it a +-2100cc
Golf Mk4 GTi 20 Valve head
GT28 turbo
Water methanol injection
R8 coil packs
What conrods do I use if I want to be safe with the 20 valve head? To drop the compression ratio down to a safe level?

I'll most probably go with a 1.9 TDi gearbox? What is better, 5 or 6 speed?

I have seen many engines built like this and they are very strong cars.

I'm honestly just aiming for 220kw max, but still be enjoyable to drive daily, with the occasional pull in between.

Any inputs or things I need to look out for?
Last edited by ChrisMaxx on Wed Oct 20, 2021 9:41 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: 2E 20 Valve stroker build idea?

Post by Greenz »

Any particular reason for that combo?...Have you maybe considered the 1.8 20vt route?
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Re: 2E 20 Valve stroker build idea?

Post by ChrisMaxx »

Greenz wrote:Any particular reason for that combo?...Have you maybe considered the 1.8 20vt route?
I have yes, but I feel they've been done to death, also I personally don't like the sound.

I love the big torquey feel of a stroker motor.
That setup is very rarely done and has great potential. Also, I'd like to build the motor futureproof, with forged internals first time round.
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Re: 2E 20 Valve stroker build idea?

Post by PapaJo »

For the above you can probably use the 159mm 2L rods, BUT then the compression height of the pistons needs to be adjusted to 29.25mm to sit flush in the block. That is to say there wasn’t any machine work (decking of the block) being done before. The std 2L crank, 159mm rods in a long block uses a 30.6mm compression height piston. That gives you 1.35mm difference which is half the stroke difference derived from 95.5mm - 92.8mm = 2.7mm divide by 2 = 1.35mm.

The compression might still be on the high side for turbo apllication. 2L crank combo with valve relief cut to clear the centre intake valve might get you closer to compression ratio for turbo as you would not have started to machine down on the piston crown and reduce the dish area on the piston.

You will need to get correct piston compression height worked out and calculate static compression height to determine where you at.
Another thing you will need to work on is the rear oil ports on the 20v head as they will not seal off on the long block. Additional things to get to work together on the cambelt end of crank too and likely clearancing inside the block to ensure the 1.9 crank and rods is not catching anywhere.

The head bolt holes on 20v head are also a smaller diameter size, unless you can get an ADR head, which uses same size diameter head bolts as the long block and will clear the cam bearing caps. ADR head needs replacement of exhaust valves as the tend to melt when used with a turbo, stainless steel exhaust valves recommended.
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Re: 2E 20 Valve stroker build idea?

Post by ChrisMaxx »

PapaJo wrote:For the above you can probably use the 159mm 2L rods, BUT then the compression height of the pistons needs to be adjusted to 29.25mm to sit flush in the block. That is to say there wasn’t any machine work (decking of the block) being done before. The std 2L crank, 159mm rods in a long block uses a 30.6mm compression height piston. That gives you 1.35mm difference which is half the stroke difference derived from 95.5mm - 92.8mm = 2.7mm divide by 2 = 1.35mm.

The compression might still be on the high side for turbo apllication. 2L crank combo with valve relief cut to clear the centre intake valve might get you closer to compression ratio for turbo as you would not have started to machine down on the piston crown and reduce the dish area on the piston.

You will need to get correct piston compression height worked out and calculate static compression height to determine where you at.
Another thing you will need to work on is the rear oil ports on the 20v head as they will not seal off on the long block. Additional things to get to work together on the cambelt end of crank too and likely clearancing inside the block to ensure the 1.9 crank and rods is not catching anywhere.

The head bolt holes on 20v head are also a smaller diameter size, unless you can get an ADR head, which uses same size diameter head bolts as the long block and will clear the cam bearing caps. ADR head needs replacement of exhaust valves as the tend to melt when used with a turbo, stainless steel exhaust valves recommended.
That's is actually what I'm after. I want the deck height to be as close to flush as possible for no clearance issues with the valves.

I read a lot about the 20V head on the 2l block, how big of a job is it to block off those ports?
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Re: 2E 20 Valve stroker build idea?

Post by ChrisMaxx »

PapaJo wrote:For the above you can probably use the 159mm 2L rods, BUT then the compression height of the pistons needs to be adjusted to 29.25mm to sit flush in the block. That is to say there wasn’t any machine work (decking of the block) being done before. The std 2L crank, 159mm rods in a long block uses a 30.6mm compression height piston. That gives you 1.35mm difference which is half the stroke difference derived from 95.5mm - 92.8mm = 2.7mm divide by 2 = 1.35mm.

The compression might still be on the high side for turbo apllication. 2L crank combo with valve relief cut to clear the centre intake valve might get you closer to compression ratio for turbo as you would not have started to machine down on the piston crown and reduce the dish area on the piston.

You will need to get correct piston compression height worked out and calculate static compression height to determine where you at.
Another thing you will need to work on is the rear oil ports on the 20v head as they will not seal off on the long block. Additional things to get to work together on the cambelt end of crank too and likely clearancing inside the block to ensure the 1.9 crank and rods is not catching anywhere.

The head bolt holes on 20v head are also a smaller diameter size, unless you can get an ADR head, which uses same size diameter head bolts as the long block and will clear the cam bearing caps. ADR head needs replacement of exhaust valves as the tend to melt when used with a turbo, stainless steel exhaust valves recommended.
Also, already planning a high rev kit for the head with upgraded valves, as I know the 20V heads are known for dropping valves with ARP head studs
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Re: 2E 20 Valve stroker build idea?

Post by PapaJo »

It’s not a too big job to block those oil ports, more important getting the right shop to do it for you. There is builds out there on the internet showing what needs to be done.
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Re: 2E 20 Valve stroker build idea?

Post by saxo »

With the 5 speed tdi gearbox you could probably still use mk1 drive shaft.
6 speed box is heavier than the 5 speed but your clutch plate will be bigger. (228mm vs 240mm)
You will have to change the ratio's if you want to use the tdi gearboxes.
Rather go for O2J 5 speed or O2M 6 speed from G5/6 gti then your ratios will be good for a petrol build.
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Re: 2E 20 Valve stroker build idea?

Post by missioner »

Another thing to consider is to start with the 2.0l 20v motor from the Audi A4. It's slightly cheaper than an AGU engine and less work than sourcing and modding the 8v motor and all the parts needed for the build

This will largely eliminate the oil port and cambelt issues right away. Another bonus is any of the 20v turbos will bolt on and solving issues related to lubricating the turbo are also easy as you can source all the turbo parts and bolt on.

Add some rods to the motor and perhaps a set of Wossner Turbo pistons and you are good to go. K04 will get you to your 220kW goal with ease.

The motor should also come with the red ignition coils and the valve cover doesn't look like the usual 20v ones, which I think could satisfy your need to have something a little different.
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Re: 2E 20 Valve stroker build idea?

Post by missioner »

ALT engine.

Image
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Re: 2E 20 Valve stroker build idea?

Post by saxo »

The 1.8t 20v has been done so many times as it works, and you can get your 220kw on a stock engine with bigger turbo and upgraded injectors.
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Re: 2E 20 Valve stroker build idea?

Post by PapaJo »

Read through this thread here on the forum.

viewtopic.php?t=202115
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Re: 2E 20 Valve stroker build idea?

Post by ChrisMaxx »

saxo wrote:The 1.8t 20v has been done so many times as it works, and you can get your 220kw on a stock engine with bigger turbo and upgraded injectors.
Thing is I already have everything apart from the 20 valve head. I'd be willing to go through with everything and build a Frankenstein.
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Re: 2E 20 Valve stroker build idea?

Post by ChrisMaxx »

PapaJo wrote:It’s not a too big job to block those oil ports, more important getting the right shop to do it for you. There is builds out there on the internet showing what needs to be done.
I've seen some people use a copper head gasket with those oil ports sealed off, could it be a reliable solution?
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Re: 2E 20 Valve stroker build idea?

Post by ChrisMaxx »

saxo wrote:With the 5 speed tdi gearbox you could probably still use mk1 drive shaft.
6 speed box is heavier than the 5 speed but your clutch plate will be bigger. (228mm vs 240mm)
You will have to change the ratio's if you want to use the tdi gearboxes.
Rather go for O2J 5 speed or O2M 6 speed from G5/6 gti then your ratios will be good for a petrol build.
Would the ratios work if the vehicle has 17s (205/40/17) on to raise the gearing?

I'd like to build a reliable setup that would be capable of daily driving if the need arises.
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Re: 2E 20 Valve stroker build idea?

Post by saxo »

If you use the 6 speed from Golf 5/6 gti yes but 6 speed tdi ratios will be very long.
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Re: 2E 20 Valve stroker build idea?

Post by missioner »

ChrisMaxx wrote:
saxo wrote:With the 5 speed tdi gearbox you could probably still use mk1 drive shaft.
6 speed box is heavier than the 5 speed but your clutch plate will be bigger. (228mm vs 240mm)
You will have to change the ratio's if you want to use the tdi gearboxes.
Rather go for O2J 5 speed or O2M 6 speed from G5/6 gti then your ratios will be good for a petrol build.
Would the ratios work if the vehicle has 17s (205/40/17) on to raise the gearing?

I'd like to build a reliable setup that would be capable of daily driving if the need arises.
You will need to decrease the ratios in the TDI gearbox.

The car will never use the higher gears driving in town as the revs will be too low for boost in 4th and 5th gears.

6spd will also have the ratios closer together with 5th gear being 1:1 (depending on which box you get). That means less time between shifts, but better for keeping the motor in the power band.
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Re: 2E 20 Valve stroker build idea?

Post by PapaJo »

ChrisMaxx wrote: Thu Oct 21, 2021 7:20 pm
PapaJo wrote:It’s not a too big job to block those oil ports, more important getting the right shop to do it for you. There is builds out there on the internet showing what needs to be done.
I've seen some people use a copper head gasket with those oil ports sealed off, could it be a reliable solution?
I would rather get the holes plugged with taper screw inserts or welded closed for a better seal and peace of mind. Copper expands with head and you might end up with oil leaking.
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Re: 2E 20 Valve stroker build idea?

Post by PapaJo »

ChrisMaxx wrote: Thu Oct 21, 2021 7:25 pm
saxo wrote:With the 5 speed tdi gearbox you could probably still use mk1 drive shaft.
6 speed box is heavier than the 5 speed but your clutch plate will be bigger. (228mm vs 240mm)
You will have to change the ratio's if you want to use the tdi gearboxes.
Rather go for O2J 5 speed or O2M 6 speed from G5/6 gti then your ratios will be good for a petrol build.
Would the ratios work if the vehicle has 17s (205/40/17) on to raise the gearing?

I'd like to build a reliable setup that would be capable of daily driving if the need arises.
TDi box, 17"wheels, big turbo to get you your power goal is all together a bad combo for driving in town as you will have the turbo lag also not helping you at low RPM's. No to little spool below 3000-3500 RPM is going to add lots of frustration or needs lots of down gearing to keep it in boost to have power and torque on the TDi box. Fitting a smaller frame turbo to reduce turbo lag will help to an extent in that part, but trading off on top end power.

I had a look at the ATL motor specs, missioner has suggested. Std compression ratio is 9,8:1. Exhaust ports matches the 1.8 20vt turbo manifolds.
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Re: 2E 20 Valve stroker build idea?

Post by ChrisMaxx »

PapaJo wrote:
ChrisMaxx wrote: Thu Oct 21, 2021 7:25 pm
saxo wrote:With the 5 speed tdi gearbox you could probably still use mk1 drive shaft.
6 speed box is heavier than the 5 speed but your clutch plate will be bigger. (228mm vs 240mm)
You will have to change the ratio's if you want to use the tdi gearboxes.
Rather go for O2J 5 speed or O2M 6 speed from G5/6 gti then your ratios will be good for a petrol build.
Would the ratios work if the vehicle has 17s (205/40/17) on to raise the gearing?

I'd like to build a reliable setup that would be capable of daily driving if the need arises.
TDi box, 17"wheels, big turbo to get you your power goal is all together a bad combo for driving in town as you will have the turbo lag also not helping you at low RPM's. No to little spool below 3000-3500 RPM is going to add lots of frustration or needs lots of down gearing to keep it in boost to have power and torque on the TDi box. Fitting a smaller frame turbo to reduce turbo lag will help to an extent in that part, but trading off on top end power.

I had a look at the ATL motor specs, missioner has suggested. Std compression ratio is 9,8:1. Exhaust ports matches the 1.8 20vt turbo manifolds.
Would a Mk4 GTi gearbox fit?

I'm gonna build it into a Polo so I'd stay in the family
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Re: 2E 20 Valve stroker build idea?

Post by PapaJo »

ChrisMaxx wrote: Mon Oct 25, 2021 6:40 pm
PapaJo wrote:
ChrisMaxx wrote: Thu Oct 21, 2021 7:25 pm
saxo wrote:With the 5 speed tdi gearbox you could probably still use mk1 drive shaft.
6 speed box is heavier than the 5 speed but your clutch plate will be bigger. (228mm vs 240mm)
You will have to change the ratio's if you want to use the tdi gearboxes.
Rather go for O2J 5 speed or O2M 6 speed from G5/6 gti then your ratios will be good for a petrol build.
Would the ratios work if the vehicle has 17s (205/40/17) on to raise the gearing?

I'd like to build a reliable setup that would be capable of daily driving if the need arises.
TDi box, 17"wheels, big turbo to get you your power goal is all together a bad combo for driving in town as you will have the turbo lag also not helping you at low RPM's. No to little spool below 3000-3500 RPM is going to add lots of frustration or needs lots of down gearing to keep it in boost to have power and torque on the TDi box. Fitting a smaller frame turbo to reduce turbo lag will help to an extent in that part, but trading off on top end power.

I had a look at the ATL motor specs, missioner has suggested. Std compression ratio is 9,8:1. Exhaust ports matches the 1.8 20vt turbo manifolds.
Would a Mk4 GTi gearbox fit?

I'm gonna build it into a Polo so I'd stay in the family
Golf Mk4 GTi gearbox will fit to the motor.

Without knowing what year model Polo, impossible to say if you would require custom gearbox mounts or can use oem ones.
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Re: 2E 20 Valve stroker build idea?

Post by Killerwatt »

I understand the fun factor of building something different but you might want to simplify things a bit. Especially if you want to daily.

My honest opinion would be to take all that cash you want to use to build the bottom end and upgrade the turbo to something newer like a G25. Then use a stock 1.8t with solid exhaust valves, forged rods and bigger injectors and you will easily hit your power goal with minimal lag.
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Re: 2E 20 Valve stroker build idea?

Post by PapaJo »

Any updates on the stroker idea??

Saw on you wheel post “stroker loading”.
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Re: 2E 20 Valve stroker build idea?

Post by ChrisMaxx »

Bury accumulating parts PapaJo. Hopefully I just bought a head last night so we'll see.

Already have the crank and pistons
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Re: 2E 20 Valve stroker build idea?

Post by PapaJo »

Any updates?
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