16V or 20V "Race" Motor

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AlexTDi
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16V or 20V "Race" Motor

Post by AlexTDi »

So after struggling basically the whole year trying to make enough power out of an 8v and failed multiple times I have decided to buy a 16v or 20v non-fsi motor and build that up to compete with next year.

Main goal is a stock ABF with cams on throttles but parts are hard to find and pricing is insane, Cams are only to deliver the power at 5000-7000rpm if it does it with stock cams then it will stay stock.

I've already bought a complete set 43mm Toyota throttles, with TPS, injectors, fuel rail, vacuum lines etc.
Can I use them as is just buy the adapter plate/trumpets from 8v performance, buy the injector plugs, wire it all in and bobs your uncle?
Can I remove all the vacuum lines and block the ports off?

what is the benefit of running 60-2 vs MAP? I already have Dicktator standard installed in the car which runs either map or tps but would need to replace it to run 60-2

Are 16v and 20v NA exhaust branches the same as in port width spacing, location, etc?

Who has first hand experience with a 20V non-fsi race motor? Since they are cheaper and parts are available is this a reliable option in stock form?
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Re: 16V or 20V "Race" Motor

Post by TDIFlava »

Hi Alex,

See you in JHB, why don't you give Shawn (I will see if I can find his number for you if interested) a call from (F&S) in the west rand they very good with 16v and 20v n/a motors

Hope you come right with project
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Re: 16V or 20V "Race" Motor

Post by dubz-on-drugz »

Hi Alex,

If you do decide to go 20v n/a , make a write up , as much as I'd love the power being boosted with all those sweet noises i have been thinking about the same setup you just mentioned .

I'm stuck with ...
Can the 20v head be modified to mate with a 2e bottom end ?

Gud luck bud


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Re: 16V or 20V "Race" Motor

Post by BlueBlob »

AlexTDi wrote:I've already bought a complete set 43mm Toyota throttles, with TPS, injectors, fuel rail, vacuum lines etc.
Can I use them as is just buy the adapter plate/trumpets from 8v performance, buy the injector plugs, wire it all in and bobs your uncle?
Can I remove all the vacuum lines and block the ports off?
Exactly what I did. I'm using the Toyota rail and everything.

That vaccum box type thing on top fouls, so I had to cut it up a bit.

But using the 8V Performance adapter plate, you're going to run into some clearance issues with the bonnet and alternator.

See my responses here
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Re: 16V or 20V "Race" Motor

Post by BlueBlob »

AlexTDi wrote:what is the benefit of running 60-2 vs MAP? I already have Dicktator standard installed in the car which runs either map or tps but would need to replace it to run 60-2
Huh? 60-2 and MAP/TPS have nothing to do with each other.

60-2 (or stock dizzy) is what you use to tell the motor where/when to fire the coil(s). TPS or MAP is how the management determines load.
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Re: 16V or 20V "Race" Motor

Post by AlexTDi »

TDIFlava wrote:Hi Alex,

See you in JHB, why don't you give Shawn (I will see if I can find his number for you if interested) a call from (F&S) in the west rand they very good with 16v and 20v n/a motors

Hope you come right with project
:thumbup:
Please send me the details
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Re: 16V or 20V "Race" Motor

Post by AlexTDi »

BlueBlob wrote:
AlexTDi wrote:I've already bought a complete set 43mm Toyota throttles, with TPS, injectors, fuel rail, vacuum lines etc.
Can I use them as is just buy the adapter plate/trumpets from 8v performance, buy the injector plugs, wire it all in and bobs your uncle?
Can I remove all the vacuum lines and block the ports off?
Exactly what I did. I'm using the Toyota rail and everything.

That vaccum box type thing on top fouls, so I had to cut it up a bit.

But using the 8V Performance adapter plate, you're going to run into some clearance issues with the bonnet and alternator.

See my responses here
I don't run a booster so could I blank it all off or is it required for something?
I don't think so, remember it's a Polo, check the pic below the 8V looks lost in there but yea I might need to run smaller trumpets.

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Re: 16V or 20V "Race" Motor

Post by AlexTDi »

BlueBlob wrote:
AlexTDi wrote:what is the benefit of running 60-2 vs MAP? I already have Dicktator standard installed in the car which runs either map or tps but would need to replace it to run 60-2
Huh? 60-2 and MAP/TPS have nothing to do with each other.

60-2 (or stock dizzy) is what you use to tell the motor where/when to fire the coil(s). TPS or MAP is how the management determines load.
Yea only thought of this afterwards, 60-2 or dizzy, I spoke to Wikus yesterday and he explained how 60-2 works and why it is way better to run it.
so I just need to buy a Dicktator 60-2 with the harness, I'll run the golf 4 coilpack with it.
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Re: 16V or 20V "Race" Motor

Post by BlueBlob »

AlexTDi wrote:I don't run a booster so could I blank it all off or is it required for something?
Only vacuum you're going to need, is to go to the ECU if you run it on MAP.
AlexTDi wrote:I don't think so, remember it's a Polo, check the pic below the 8V looks lost in there but yea I might need to run smaller trumpets.
Right. Forgot you're in a Polo now.
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Re: 16V or 20V "Race" Motor

Post by AlexTDi »

Ya I'll run it on MAP, TPS gives issues apparently well that's on single throttle not sure about itbs?

I also need to figure out which pipe is the return and feed on that rail, haven't really looked into it.

Do you still run the idle control valve? how does that get wired in to a dicktator or how does it work?
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Re: 16V or 20V "Race" Motor

Post by BlueBlob »

AlexTDi wrote:Ya I'll run it on MAP, TPS gives issues apparently well that's on single throttle not sure about itbs?
No, that is not true.

But also, you can't really run ITB's on MAP alone. They don't make enough vacuum, unless you try and build some kind of balance chamber across the 4 intakes. You *might* be able to use the standard one on those throttles, but like I mentioned, I had to cut that bit off to make it fit (it caught on the tappet cover).

So on something like Dicktator, you're going to get better results using TPS. On XMS, like what we use, you use both TPS and MAP, but mainly TPS.
AlexTDi wrote:I also need to figure out which pipe is the return and feed on that rail, haven't really looked into it.
Looking at the pics I posted in that other thread, so looking at them from the front of the car, feed is on the left, return on the right (where the regulator sits).
AlexTDi wrote:Do you still run the idle control valve? how does that get wired in to a dicktator or how does it work?
Nope, I just made an adjustment screw on the linkage that makes the idle adjustable.
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Re: 16V or 20V "Race" Motor

Post by AlexTDi »

Ah ok simple solutions which will work perfectly, thanks bud
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Re: 16V or 20V "Race" Motor

Post by panic-mechanic »

Eish so many questions almost all of which has been answered before.
stock 16v cams will make power to 6000 rpm. From there it is downhill in Gauteng.
You can mate a 20V head to a 2l block yes has been done many times before. 20v cams are very expensive though.
Most of the other stuff has been answered - can't run MAP on ITBS - not enough vacuum and even worse on long cams so you run TPS.
60-2 is a timing setup and nothing to do with fuelling. Advantage is better accuracy. Mainly used to be able to use wasted spark coils which give you better spark at high RPM.
No idle control valve. Manual throttle stop and low idle when cold.
I have a second hand 60-2 dictator. make an offer. You will probably want to buy a new harnass.
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Re: 16V or 20V "Race" Motor

Post by WeirdSteam »

Alex if you decide to Sell the STD Dictator i might be interested in it..
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Re: 16V or 20V "Race" Motor

Post by AlexTDi »

panic-mechanic wrote:Eish so many questions almost all of which has been answered before.
stock 16v cams will make power to 6000 rpm. From there it is downhill in Gauteng.
You can mate a 20V head to a 2l block yes has been done many times before. 20v cams are very expensive though.
Most of the other stuff has been answered - can't run MAP on ITBS - not enough vacuum and even worse on long cams so you run TPS.
60-2 is a timing setup and nothing to do with fuelling. Advantage is better accuracy. Mainly used to be able to use wasted spark coils which give you better spark at high RPM.
No idle control valve. Manual throttle stop and low idle when cold.
I have a second hand 60-2 dictator. make an offer. You will probably want to buy a new harnass.
Thanks Panic will be in touch after the weekend, Can I use my wiring I installed for the Dicktator standard unit? I didn't cut out any wires I didn't use.
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Re: 16V or 20V "Race" Motor

Post by AlexTDi »

WeirdSteam wrote:Alex if you decide to Sell the STD Dictator i might be interested in it..
I will sell it but only after my last race at the end of November, still going to run the 2.0 8v until then.
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Re: 16V or 20V "Race" Motor

Post by BlueBlob »

AlexTDi wrote:
panic-mechanic wrote:Eish so many questions almost all of which has been answered before.
stock 16v cams will make power to 6000 rpm. From there it is downhill in Gauteng.
You can mate a 20V head to a 2l block yes has been done many times before. 20v cams are very expensive though.
Most of the other stuff has been answered - can't run MAP on ITBS - not enough vacuum and even worse on long cams so you run TPS.
60-2 is a timing setup and nothing to do with fuelling. Advantage is better accuracy. Mainly used to be able to use wasted spark coils which give you better spark at high RPM.
No idle control valve. Manual throttle stop and low idle when cold.
I have a second hand 60-2 dictator. make an offer. You will probably want to buy a new harnass.
Thanks Panic will be in touch after the weekend, Can I use my wiring I installed for the Dicktator standard unit? I didn't cut out any wires I didn't use.
Should be able to. The difference is essentially in the firmware.

Just as an aside, you can also run that motor on a STD Dicktator (I wouldn't, but its technically possible)..
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Re: 16V or 20V "Race" Motor

Post by BlueBlob »

Had a quick look at the diagrams. Three wires are different. Can use your existing loom, yes. Will just rewire the pickup.
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Re: 16V or 20V "Race" Motor

Post by dubz-on-drugz »

BlueBlob wrote:
AlexTDi wrote:I don't run a booster so could I blank it all off or is it required for something?
Only vacuum you're going to need, is to go to the ECU if you run it on MAP.
AlexTDi wrote:I don't think so, remember it's a Polo, check the pic below the 8V looks lost in there but yea I might need to run smaller trumpets.
Right. Forgot you're in a Polo now.
Polo ? Share pix bud Image

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Re: 16V or 20V "Race" Motor

Post by AlexTDi »

BlueBlob wrote:Had a quick look at the diagrams. Three wires are different. Can use your existing loom, yes. Will just rewire the pickup.
Ok awesome that will make things better then.
dubz-on-drugz wrote:Polo ? Share pix bud Image

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Re: 16V or 20V "Race" Motor

Post by AlexTDi »

Just an update, I raced at Redstar this weekend and the 8v went tits up :bang:

last lap in race 1 it ran bearings and subsequently seized up so will need to strip the sub assembly and check what all went wrong. I suspect either the oil pump or baffled sump baffles got stuck for some or other reason, This is really not something I wanted at the moment.
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Re: 16V or 20V "Race" Motor

Post by WeirdSteam »

AlexTDi wrote:Just an update, I raced at Redstar this weekend and the 8v went tits up :bang:

last lap in race 1 it ran bearings and subsequently seized up so will need to strip the sub assembly and check what all went wrong. I suspect either the oil pump or baffled sump baffles got stuck for some or other reason, This is really not something I wanted at the moment.
Man that Sucks, hope its something that you can sort out.
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Re: 16V or 20V "Race" Motor

Post by dubz-on-drugz »

Damn dude , hope all works out .

What work is done to the car ?

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Re: 16V or 20V "Race" Motor

Post by AlexTDi »

WeirdSteam wrote:
AlexTDi wrote:Just an update, I raced at Redstar this weekend and the 8v went tits up :bang:

last lap in race 1 it ran bearings and subsequently seized up so will need to strip the sub assembly and check what all went wrong. I suspect either the oil pump or baffled sump baffles got stuck for some or other reason, This is really not something I wanted at the moment.
Man that Sucks, hope its something that you can sort out.
I'm pretty sure I need an entire new sub assembly but we'll see later in the week, for now I'm going to drain some oil and send it in for analysis.
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Re: 16V or 20V "Race" Motor

Post by AlexTDi »

dubz-on-drugz wrote:Damn dude , hope all works out .

What work is done to the car ?

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car or engine?

If you mean engine it's a 8v Performance stage 3 gasflow head, 298 estas cam, high rev kit, semi solid lifters, port matched exhaust and intake mani, 4-1 branch, 11.4 compression ratio, Dicktator management.
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