Highest "safe" compression 2E motor
- AlexTDi
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Highest "safe" compression 2E motor
Hi All,
So trying to get more power out of my race car.
It has a stock 2E bottom end, 8v Performance stage 3 head (port matched, flowed, 3 angle seats etc.) high rev kit, 298 estas cam
Compression is currently 10.67 (skimmed head)
so the plan is to push up the compression and run a mix of ethanol and 95, what would be the max compression I could safely run on stock 2E pistons?
So trying to get more power out of my race car.
It has a stock 2E bottom end, 8v Performance stage 3 head (port matched, flowed, 3 angle seats etc.) high rev kit, 298 estas cam
Compression is currently 10.67 (skimmed head)
so the plan is to push up the compression and run a mix of ethanol and 95, what would be the max compression I could safely run on stock 2E pistons?
Alex
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- panic-mechanic
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Re: Highest "safe" compression 2E motor
As much as you want. The pistons is not the limiting factor. Tuning and octane is. Keep remembering that on N/A you might reach a point where the fuel you use might be the factor before the limit of timing (or the pistons) becomes the issue - too much Ethanol and it might make less power than what the compression gain gives you.
So in the years of 102.6 leaded being available we ran around 12.5 :1 effectively but I have no idea how a mix of ethanol and 95 will react at the same CR. With the alcohol fuels you might actually have to run huge compression to make the gain worth while.
Lots of guys use ethanol and turbo cars effectively but I dont know how much is really known using it in an N/A environment and I have not bothered with it at all in N/A form. My feeling is that traditional octane boosters will work better there than Ethanol.
So in the years of 102.6 leaded being available we ran around 12.5 :1 effectively but I have no idea how a mix of ethanol and 95 will react at the same CR. With the alcohol fuels you might actually have to run huge compression to make the gain worth while.
Lots of guys use ethanol and turbo cars effectively but I dont know how much is really known using it in an N/A environment and I have not bothered with it at all in N/A form. My feeling is that traditional octane boosters will work better there than Ethanol.
Stephan van Tonder - Jhb - Putfontein Benoni
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- AlexTDi
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Re: Highest "safe" compression 2E motor
Yea I definitely think the fuel is limiting me now even how the motor is now, IIRC the timing is around 22-24 degrees at 7000rpm any higher and it pings. I'd run a 50/50 mix which will be just over 101 octane, I can get that same octane with NF but I need to check prices first but this will probably be the best option. I know the NF race fuel they sell will cost over R2k a race weekend and at that price I might as well continue with what I have and save for a 16v
Alex
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Re: Highest "safe" compression 2E motor
Always lost power tuning with Ethanol & pump fuel when compared to pump fuel & octane.
However, I didn't have the knowledge that I have now. So basically, over using it will kill the power since there isn't high enough compression to burn that extra that you adding in.
The Proof: 50eth/50pump on my 8v throttle setup- 109wkw & 217wnm. Same setup with pump & octane 110wkw & 220wnm
Single throttle- 108wkw & 217wnm with pump & octane. Same setup with 70% pump & 30% Eth- 105wkw & 215wnm
The changes in the cars characteristics have proven otherwise, it was always faster with the Eth.
Once I tuned the car on Pump fuel & octane, thereafter supplemented my octane with some Eth (10L pump with 1L Ethanol). It was a different beast all together, allowed me to strap many ABF's. I can imagine this for you on the track would be ideal.
Maybe chat to Christo, if I remember correctly one of his 16v's are tuned on Eth so he can share his experience with you as well.
However, I didn't have the knowledge that I have now. So basically, over using it will kill the power since there isn't high enough compression to burn that extra that you adding in.
The Proof: 50eth/50pump on my 8v throttle setup- 109wkw & 217wnm. Same setup with pump & octane 110wkw & 220wnm
Single throttle- 108wkw & 217wnm with pump & octane. Same setup with 70% pump & 30% Eth- 105wkw & 215wnm
The changes in the cars characteristics have proven otherwise, it was always faster with the Eth.
Once I tuned the car on Pump fuel & octane, thereafter supplemented my octane with some Eth (10L pump with 1L Ethanol). It was a different beast all together, allowed me to strap many ABF's. I can imagine this for you on the track would be ideal.
Maybe chat to Christo, if I remember correctly one of his 16v's are tuned on Eth so he can share his experience with you as well.
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2007 Velociti- WHITEWALKER [Std 2.0 bottom end, head gas flowed,ported, valve swirled, 276 Estas, 4-2-1 Branch, 57mm piping from front to back]
2007 Velociti- WHITEWALKER [Std 2.0 bottom end, head gas flowed,ported, valve swirled, 276 Estas, 4-2-1 Branch, 57mm piping from front to back]
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Re: Highest "safe" compression 2E motor
Geez I made 103wkw & 198nm @ 23.5deg but Durban air, so you not in a bad space I think
2000 Golf 1 Chico- CRANKCASE [Std 2.0 bottom end, head gas flowed,ported & chopped by Fastcar, 288 Estas Billet, 4-2-1 43mm Brospeed Branch, 50mm-57mm-63mm Exhaust] + THE PART (2B1 speacials) -Final power @ Autotrix 111wkw & 210wnm
2007 Velociti- WHITEWALKER [Std 2.0 bottom end, head gas flowed,ported, valve swirled, 276 Estas, 4-2-1 Branch, 57mm piping from front to back]
2007 Velociti- WHITEWALKER [Std 2.0 bottom end, head gas flowed,ported, valve swirled, 276 Estas, 4-2-1 Branch, 57mm piping from front to back]
- panic-mechanic
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Re: Highest "safe" compression 2E motor
50/50 is too much. You literally want to add just enought to stop the ping at peak power.
Stephan van Tonder - Jhb - Putfontein Benoni
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Re: Highest "safe" compression 2E motor
With the compression of 10 something, you could use the cheap NF and get away with advanced timing.
2000 Golf 1 Chico- CRANKCASE [Std 2.0 bottom end, head gas flowed,ported & chopped by Fastcar, 288 Estas Billet, 4-2-1 43mm Brospeed Branch, 50mm-57mm-63mm Exhaust] + THE PART (2B1 speacials) -Final power @ Autotrix 111wkw & 210wnm
2007 Velociti- WHITEWALKER [Std 2.0 bottom end, head gas flowed,ported, valve swirled, 276 Estas, 4-2-1 Branch, 57mm piping from front to back]
2007 Velociti- WHITEWALKER [Std 2.0 bottom end, head gas flowed,ported, valve swirled, 276 Estas, 4-2-1 Branch, 57mm piping from front to back]
- AlexTDi
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Re: Highest "safe" compression 2E motor
Thanks for the advice guys.
I think I should stick to a NF octane booster, I see they also sell race fuel in 98 and 102.6.
Eth can be problematic if I get the mixtures wrong, I definitely don't want to lose power and If I suddenly gain more then it was tuned for will become a problem as we randomly get pulled for a dyno after the races and if that happens and I make more power then allowed I'll get DQ'd
I think I should stick to a NF octane booster, I see they also sell race fuel in 98 and 102.6.
Eth can be problematic if I get the mixtures wrong, I definitely don't want to lose power and If I suddenly gain more then it was tuned for will become a problem as we randomly get pulled for a dyno after the races and if that happens and I make more power then allowed I'll get DQ'd
Alex
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Re: Highest "safe" compression 2E motor
In my personal opinion I feel that the NF race fuel is expensive, but that is the price you pay for consistency.
The cooling effect of Ethanol will be very beneficial to you racing on the track, I suggest go for it!!! Even a 5%-10% mix will make a very nice difference.
If I knew back then it was a better option to deck the block to pick up comp I would have done it, my head was skimmed buggered to pick the comp up
The cooling effect of Ethanol will be very beneficial to you racing on the track, I suggest go for it!!! Even a 5%-10% mix will make a very nice difference.
If I knew back then it was a better option to deck the block to pick up comp I would have done it, my head was skimmed buggered to pick the comp up
2000 Golf 1 Chico- CRANKCASE [Std 2.0 bottom end, head gas flowed,ported & chopped by Fastcar, 288 Estas Billet, 4-2-1 43mm Brospeed Branch, 50mm-57mm-63mm Exhaust] + THE PART (2B1 speacials) -Final power @ Autotrix 111wkw & 210wnm
2007 Velociti- WHITEWALKER [Std 2.0 bottom end, head gas flowed,ported, valve swirled, 276 Estas, 4-2-1 Branch, 57mm piping from front to back]
2007 Velociti- WHITEWALKER [Std 2.0 bottom end, head gas flowed,ported, valve swirled, 276 Estas, 4-2-1 Branch, 57mm piping from front to back]
- AlexTDi
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Re: Highest "safe" compression 2E motor
Yea it is hence a bottle of NF Sport or Race OB will do the trick depending how high I lift the CR.
I'll skim the head further before doing the block, I've used an online calculator and it's basically taking 1.7mm off a standard 30cc head to get a 11.5 ratio
My head isn't standard and the only way to do it properly will be to measure CC the head and block properly.
Is 11.5 not going to make that much of a difference and should I rather look at 12.5?
I'll skim the head further before doing the block, I've used an online calculator and it's basically taking 1.7mm off a standard 30cc head to get a 11.5 ratio
My head isn't standard and the only way to do it properly will be to measure CC the head and block properly.
Is 11.5 not going to make that much of a difference and should I rather look at 12.5?
Alex
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Re: Highest "safe" compression 2E motor
Best bet is to speak to Sarel...whatever happens hope all works out for you!
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2000 Golf 1 Chico- CRANKCASE [Std 2.0 bottom end, head gas flowed,ported & chopped by Fastcar, 288 Estas Billet, 4-2-1 43mm Brospeed Branch, 50mm-57mm-63mm Exhaust] + THE PART (2B1 speacials) -Final power @ Autotrix 111wkw & 210wnm
2007 Velociti- WHITEWALKER [Std 2.0 bottom end, head gas flowed,ported, valve swirled, 276 Estas, 4-2-1 Branch, 57mm piping from front to back]
2007 Velociti- WHITEWALKER [Std 2.0 bottom end, head gas flowed,ported, valve swirled, 276 Estas, 4-2-1 Branch, 57mm piping from front to back]
- PaKiMoNSTeR
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Re: Highest "safe" compression 2E motor
This is interesting as we have also been having the same discussions or asking the same questions. We kept on having issues with the car mot making power. So we also looked at trying different mixes of pump & NF or 98 race fuel & NF. Turned out that the fuel rail had been leaking and the pressure wasn't enough. Sorted that out and the car made 100kw & 178mn on plain pump.
But this is a question we are also still asking, what is the better option. Pump mix with NF/Eth or even avgas? Lots of guys here run that on their cars. At what CR does using these mixes actually start making a difference? Don't want to pull the motor again after just getting it sorted now for only a few ponies.
But this is a question we are also still asking, what is the better option. Pump mix with NF/Eth or even avgas? Lots of guys here run that on their cars. At what CR does using these mixes actually start making a difference? Don't want to pull the motor again after just getting it sorted now for only a few ponies.
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Re: Highest "safe" compression 2E motor
Stephan I had a lengthy chat to your dad the other day, hats off to him for keeping it real at his age!!
I'm certain that he's going to go with the E95 & pump, also one big thing is not to over juice the mix with Eth but rather keep it conservative to a point.
All the best!
I'm certain that he's going to go with the E95 & pump, also one big thing is not to over juice the mix with Eth but rather keep it conservative to a point.
All the best!
2000 Golf 1 Chico- CRANKCASE [Std 2.0 bottom end, head gas flowed,ported & chopped by Fastcar, 288 Estas Billet, 4-2-1 43mm Brospeed Branch, 50mm-57mm-63mm Exhaust] + THE PART (2B1 speacials) -Final power @ Autotrix 111wkw & 210wnm
2007 Velociti- WHITEWALKER [Std 2.0 bottom end, head gas flowed,ported, valve swirled, 276 Estas, 4-2-1 Branch, 57mm piping from front to back]
2007 Velociti- WHITEWALKER [Std 2.0 bottom end, head gas flowed,ported, valve swirled, 276 Estas, 4-2-1 Branch, 57mm piping from front to back]
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Re: Highest "safe" compression 2E motor
Did you had the throttles on the 2.0L with mix when you made 110kw? After Saturday's racing I will play with bigger throttle etc with 95 pump. Spoken to Panic yeasterday and will see him weekend of 22 June.
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Re: Highest "safe" compression 2E motor
8v-zn, I am about 2 sec slower than Stephan. I have to up power to stay with younger guys. I don't have their skills or . Will get there. He will race regionals again as of Saturday untill his car is ready.
- AlexTDi
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Re: Highest "safe" compression 2E motor
We've checked those sort of things and I'm pretty sure that's not the problem, I have a fuel pressure gauge and it's always around 3-3.5 bar, no visible leaks and we've checked duty cycle on the injectors etc. The minute we up the timing to over "tuned" setups the car pings so we know the octane is at it's limit.PaKiMoNSTeR wrote:This is interesting as we have also been having the same discussions or asking the same questions. We kept on having issues with the car mot making power. So we also looked at trying different mixes of pump & NF or 98 race fuel & NF. Turned out that the fuel rail had been leaking and the pressure wasn't enough. Sorted that out and the car made 100kw & 178mn on plain pump.
But this is a question we are also still asking, what is the better option. Pump mix with NF/Eth or even avgas? Lots of guys here run that on their cars. At what CR does using these mixes actually start making a difference? Don't want to pull the motor again after just getting it sorted now for only a few ponies.
I've spoken to the team at 8v performance and we aiming for a 11.2 CR, I'll work out the final CR once the current head comes off.
Alex
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Re: Highest "safe" compression 2E motor
We running 11.3 cr and pump fuel on the 1800 with 288 cam. Timimg 28 deg at top end. Had to pull nack timing at 4700 rpm. We fitted a 4 bar Polo filter/regulator and blanked the teturn on the fuel rail. As mentioned above we get 100kw and 178nm now.
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Re: Highest "safe" compression 2E motor
Why do you keep wanting to run 95 or 95 and mix? There are other options available that are much safer and will make more power.
Measured the head cc on my head the other night - 27cc - which basically worked out to 13.45:1 CR on my car. Remember I don't run 8v pistons. I'm giving up on that head though, too much wrong with it and too expensive to try fix it. Sarel is busy doing a proper Stage 3 head for me now, with rev kit, semi solid lifters and 298 hydraulic cam. If I am still struggling to make power, it just means my bottom-end is stuffed. But I can live with that till I can afford a proper bottom-end.
Oh and what happened with your box? Find any drag on there? My box is in pieces at the moment, and I finally figured out why I get so much wheelspin - there is no LS-Diff in the car.
Lots of work before I can get my car on the track by the 16th!
Measured the head cc on my head the other night - 27cc - which basically worked out to 13.45:1 CR on my car. Remember I don't run 8v pistons. I'm giving up on that head though, too much wrong with it and too expensive to try fix it. Sarel is busy doing a proper Stage 3 head for me now, with rev kit, semi solid lifters and 298 hydraulic cam. If I am still struggling to make power, it just means my bottom-end is stuffed. But I can live with that till I can afford a proper bottom-end.
Oh and what happened with your box? Find any drag on there? My box is in pieces at the moment, and I finally figured out why I get so much wheelspin - there is no LS-Diff in the car.
Lots of work before I can get my car on the track by the 16th!
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Re: Highest "safe" compression 2E motor
MR Jetta racer yes made that power with a 50/50 mix of Ethanol & 95 pump- however that power could have been achieved with lesser Eth/pump.
Like we chatted about, the response and overall drivability with Eth is to good!! Managed to find yourself some E95?
Like we chatted about, the response and overall drivability with Eth is to good!! Managed to find yourself some E95?
2000 Golf 1 Chico- CRANKCASE [Std 2.0 bottom end, head gas flowed,ported & chopped by Fastcar, 288 Estas Billet, 4-2-1 43mm Brospeed Branch, 50mm-57mm-63mm Exhaust] + THE PART (2B1 speacials) -Final power @ Autotrix 111wkw & 210wnm
2007 Velociti- WHITEWALKER [Std 2.0 bottom end, head gas flowed,ported, valve swirled, 276 Estas, 4-2-1 Branch, 57mm piping from front to back]
2007 Velociti- WHITEWALKER [Std 2.0 bottom end, head gas flowed,ported, valve swirled, 276 Estas, 4-2-1 Branch, 57mm piping from front to back]
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Re: Highest "safe" compression 2E motor
Yeah what does dynoes know about power anyway. As long as it feels good.
Stephan van Tonder - Jhb - Putfontein Benoni
'05 Audi A6 3.0L TDI Avant
'09 Touareg 3l TDI
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'09 Touareg 3l TDI
'13 VW CC 2l tdi (repair project)
'05 Touareg v10
Perfect Power dealer. I do dyno tuning.
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Re: Highest "safe" compression 2E motor
Seems like the old man is more popular on here than me...
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Re: Highest "safe" compression 2E motor
Much respect to him for keeping the lyties on their toes...When Panic is done with the car you going to have have big problems!!
2000 Golf 1 Chico- CRANKCASE [Std 2.0 bottom end, head gas flowed,ported & chopped by Fastcar, 288 Estas Billet, 4-2-1 43mm Brospeed Branch, 50mm-57mm-63mm Exhaust] + THE PART (2B1 speacials) -Final power @ Autotrix 111wkw & 210wnm
2007 Velociti- WHITEWALKER [Std 2.0 bottom end, head gas flowed,ported, valve swirled, 276 Estas, 4-2-1 Branch, 57mm piping from front to back]
2007 Velociti- WHITEWALKER [Std 2.0 bottom end, head gas flowed,ported, valve swirled, 276 Estas, 4-2-1 Branch, 57mm piping from front to back]
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Re: Highest "safe" compression 2E motor
panic-mechanic wrote:As much as you want. The pistons is not the limiting factor. Tuning and octane is. Keep remembering that on N/A you might reach a point where the fuel you use might be the factor before the limit of timing (or the pistons) becomes the issue - too much Ethanol and it might make less power than what the compression gain gives you.
So in the years of 102.6 leaded being available we ran around 12.5 :1 effectively but I have no idea how a mix of ethanol and 95 will react at the same CR. With the alcohol fuels you might actually have to run huge compression to make the gain worth while.
Lots of guys use ethanol and turbo cars effectively but I dont know how much is really known using it in an N/A environment and I have not bothered with it at all in N/A form. My feeling is that traditional octane boosters will work better there than Ethanol.
This is the best reply I have ever heard for a golf engine abuse case,
Ethanol form what I have heard will sooner or later damages your engine, as panic states, octane boosters not only work better but also look after the critical components of your combustion system
I met a gentleman in KZN years ago who did mixes for the petro chem industry and he claimed that all petrol is proceeded to the same grade in the beginning which is lower than what we can use, it is additional additives that make it the grades that we need for our cars
The cool part about octane boosters, is that is is like cooking up cocktails for a party, which petrol to which booster and so on
1998 Golf 3 - Donor to what I want,
1999 VW Microbus - stripped for parts- got tired of waiting for spares
2004 VW Golf 4 ex
1998 Audi A4 ex
1996 VW Golf 3 ex
1992 VW Golf 1 aka ' The Little ****" met a lamp post sadly
1986 Ford Saphire ex
1987 Ford Meteor ex
1969 Ford Capri GT ex
nothing in life is what is seems until you explore the truth behind what people do not what you to know.
If life is not about falling, then why are we here
1999 VW Microbus - stripped for parts- got tired of waiting for spares
2004 VW Golf 4 ex
1998 Audi A4 ex
1996 VW Golf 3 ex
1992 VW Golf 1 aka ' The Little ****" met a lamp post sadly
1986 Ford Saphire ex
1987 Ford Meteor ex
1969 Ford Capri GT ex
nothing in life is what is seems until you explore the truth behind what people do not what you to know.
If life is not about falling, then why are we here
- AlexTDi
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Re: Highest "safe" compression 2E motor
I can't get avgas as easily as you do so for now 95 + mix will do, my car is supposed to make decent power on just 95 so ya, the head he is building you is exactly what he built for me. it's still at the shop as I got them to recheck it and skim it further. will collect it this week and try it again at a later stage.alfaquad wrote:Why do you keep wanting to run 95 or 95 and mix? There are other options available that are much safer and will make more power.
Measured the head cc on my head the other night - 27cc - which basically worked out to 13.45:1 CR on my car. Remember I don't run 8v pistons. I'm giving up on that head though, too much wrong with it and too expensive to try fix it. Sarel is busy doing a proper Stage 3 head for me now, with rev kit, semi solid lifters and 298 hydraulic cam. If I am still struggling to make power, it just means my bottom-end is stuffed. But I can live with that till I can afford a proper bottom-end.
Oh and what happened with your box? Find any drag on there? My box is in pieces at the moment, and I finally figured out why I get so much wheelspin - there is no LS-Diff in the car.
Lots of work before I can get my car on the track by the 16th!
Box is fine drag is just as low on the dyno as a normal link shift, so that's not the issue. I'm semi-sorted with the suspension setup now ran a 1m18 flat two weeks back at Zwartkops on old tyres so relatively happy that I'm progressing.
LS is for girls! you don't need it to be quick in a Golf and you're closer to Superhatch spec
Alex
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VWCSA Member No. 1724
Daily: '06 Land Rover Freelander TD4 HSE
Race Car: Polo Vivo GT
EX:
Daily:
'15 6C Polo GTI DSG
'06 1.9 TDI Sportline
'06 BMW 320D M-Sport
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Re: Highest "safe" compression 2E motor
My cars getting tuned this Wednesday, so I will post up final results of using Ethanol in N/A application.
For fun- Dropped in a 10% mix yesterday, and damn have to say the power is significantly smoother and revvs super clean to 7000rpm.
After this, I've basically worked out that a 10%-20% mix will be sufficient to suppress the knock.
I've used a 70/30 mix previously on the same setup and lost a little on both power and torque hence dialing it back a bit will help.
For fun- Dropped in a 10% mix yesterday, and damn have to say the power is significantly smoother and revvs super clean to 7000rpm.
After this, I've basically worked out that a 10%-20% mix will be sufficient to suppress the knock.
I've used a 70/30 mix previously on the same setup and lost a little on both power and torque hence dialing it back a bit will help.
2000 Golf 1 Chico- CRANKCASE [Std 2.0 bottom end, head gas flowed,ported & chopped by Fastcar, 288 Estas Billet, 4-2-1 43mm Brospeed Branch, 50mm-57mm-63mm Exhaust] + THE PART (2B1 speacials) -Final power @ Autotrix 111wkw & 210wnm
2007 Velociti- WHITEWALKER [Std 2.0 bottom end, head gas flowed,ported, valve swirled, 276 Estas, 4-2-1 Branch, 57mm piping from front to back]
2007 Velociti- WHITEWALKER [Std 2.0 bottom end, head gas flowed,ported, valve swirled, 276 Estas, 4-2-1 Branch, 57mm piping from front to back]