Supporting mods to run E95 Ethanol

8VALVE-zn
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Supporting mods to run E95 Ethanol

Post by 8VALVE-zn »

Hi Guys,

I have played around with a lot fuel mixes in the past, mainly Demon Juice & pump fuel as well as pump fuel & ethanol.

I got my N/A 2.0 8v running on Gotech MFI X and this past Tuesday night I got the car on the rollers. The fuelling was done properly as well as the timing in the different ranges. After this it was game time (full throttle timing), we only managed to give the car 20 deg timing before it pinged. At that timing the car made 98.2wkw & 190nm, to find out if it really was the fuel mix that was wrong my tuner gave the car a further 3.5deg timing and the power went up to 103wkw & 198nm but it could only be revved to like 4800rpm before it pinged (yes, this power was made at the rpm's stated).

Now this is my weekend toy/race car so getting the full performance out is the main aim.

I want to know for the experienced Ethanol users here on what will need changing for me to run this fuel safely and trouble free.

Note: I plan on running 100% Ethanol, not the grade but in terms of the mix

The plan is to get myself another Gotech Box which will run the Full ethanol map, and the current will be mapped with the pump fuel map.

Currently running-
Fuel Pump: Pumprite 044- 10 bar (same spec as the bosch 044)
Fuel lines: Motorquip 8mm (I will get this changed to higher spec even if it is safe to run eth)
Fuel Tank: Velo tank
Fuel Filter: Normal GUD kind (spoke to the tech guys in the factory and this will be fine)
Injectors: 450cc (the kind that comes of the Merc C200) - Previously the car was tuned on 50% Eth (E5) & 50% 95 Pump and the duty cycle on the injectors were fine, no where near maxed. I will get the set tested and cleaned before tuning.

As always, thanks in advance for the help.
2000 Golf 1 Chico- CRANKCASE [Std 2.0 bottom end, head gas flowed,ported & chopped by Fastcar, 288 Estas Billet, 4-2-1 43mm Brospeed Branch, 50mm-57mm-63mm Exhaust] + THE PART (2B1 speacials) -Final power @ Autotrix 111wkw & 210wnm :drool: :evil:

2007 Velociti- WHITEWALKER [Std 2.0 bottom end, head gas flowed,ported, valve swirled, 276 Estas, 4-2-1 Branch, 57mm piping from front to back] :oops: :drool:
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Re: Supporting mods to run E95 Ethanol

Post by panic-mechanic »

Ethanol,as a fuel is about 30% less powerfull than petrol. So unless you can burn about 30% more it will make less power.
Where it makes more power is in boosted applications where you can run high compression and high boost and not have detonation. In a n/a environment use just enough to get to the point where it will suppress the knock to the point where you have no more power gain by advancing the timing. Anything more will lose you power.
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Re: Supporting mods to run E95 Ethanol

Post by 8VALVE-zn »

Hi Panic, thanks for that.

The reason I want to go full Ethanol is that I'm tired of guessing what will be the right amount Eth/Octane to mix into pump fuel.

So the aim here is get the car mapped again from scratch with a 100% Ethanol mix, pull out as much power as possible.

So basically Panic my question now is, will there be any issues pulling out the power using Eth as a fuel, assuming the tune is done proper?

On the conversion side, anything you suggest I change/use?
2000 Golf 1 Chico- CRANKCASE [Std 2.0 bottom end, head gas flowed,ported & chopped by Fastcar, 288 Estas Billet, 4-2-1 43mm Brospeed Branch, 50mm-57mm-63mm Exhaust] + THE PART (2B1 speacials) -Final power @ Autotrix 111wkw & 210wnm :drool: :evil:

2007 Velociti- WHITEWALKER [Std 2.0 bottom end, head gas flowed,ported, valve swirled, 276 Estas, 4-2-1 Branch, 57mm piping from front to back] :oops: :drool:
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Re: Supporting mods to run E95 Ethanol

Post by 8VALVE-zn »

100% Eth mix will suppress the knock completely?

The rest I will have to leave in the hands of my tuner, I'm sure he will find the point where the power will start to drop off

Panic for Eth, what is the ideal Air/Fuel ratio's -I have 11 floating around in my head, makes sense to run it rich since it burns out faster
2000 Golf 1 Chico- CRANKCASE [Std 2.0 bottom end, head gas flowed,ported & chopped by Fastcar, 288 Estas Billet, 4-2-1 43mm Brospeed Branch, 50mm-57mm-63mm Exhaust] + THE PART (2B1 speacials) -Final power @ Autotrix 111wkw & 210wnm :drool: :evil:

2007 Velociti- WHITEWALKER [Std 2.0 bottom end, head gas flowed,ported, valve swirled, 276 Estas, 4-2-1 Branch, 57mm piping from front to back] :oops: :drool:
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Re: Supporting mods to run E95 Ethanol

Post by Jetta2 »

For Ethanol:

E10 = 14.13:1

E15 = 13.8:1

E85 = 9.7:1

Straight Ethanol (E100) = 9:1
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Re: Supporting mods to run E95 Ethanol

Post by 8VALVE-zn »

Ahhh you a legend, thank you.
2000 Golf 1 Chico- CRANKCASE [Std 2.0 bottom end, head gas flowed,ported & chopped by Fastcar, 288 Estas Billet, 4-2-1 43mm Brospeed Branch, 50mm-57mm-63mm Exhaust] + THE PART (2B1 speacials) -Final power @ Autotrix 111wkw & 210wnm :drool: :evil:

2007 Velociti- WHITEWALKER [Std 2.0 bottom end, head gas flowed,ported, valve swirled, 276 Estas, 4-2-1 Branch, 57mm piping from front to back] :oops: :drool:
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Re: Supporting mods to run E95 Ethanol

Post by panic-mechanic »

Ok you don't seem to understand what I am saying. Even if your tuner is a magician that engine will make less HP on full ethanol than it does even while detonating on gasoline. Yes it will certainly not detonate but trust me you can only add about 10 more degrees of timing before the power will drop off even with no detonation. And that extra timing is not going to make 30 more kw which is how much it is going to make less on full ethanol.
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Re: Supporting mods to run E95 Ethanol

Post by THANAS »

panic-mechanic wrote:Ok you don't seem to understand what I am saying. Even if your tuner is a magician that engine will make less HP on full ethanol than it does even while detonating on gasoline. Yes it will certainly not detonate but trust me you can only add about 10 more degrees of timing before the power will drop off even with no detonation. And that extra timing is not going to make 30 more kw which is how much it is going to make less on full ethanol.
Exactly this. If you aren't adding boost or upping compression further, I wouldn't bother. You can carry on running a bit of eth in your fuel mix or octane booster. Get a cable and ask your tuner to make a few maps based on different mixes and flash them when you change mixes. Or drop compression with a spacer and run straight 95.
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Re: Supporting mods to run E95 Ethanol

Post by 8VALVE-zn »

well noted.

thanks for clearing that up.

Can someone confirm the octane rating of running the following mixes

1. 80% 95 Pump gas & 20% E5/E95
2. 50% 95 Pump gas & 50% E5/E95

Shot...
2000 Golf 1 Chico- CRANKCASE [Std 2.0 bottom end, head gas flowed,ported & chopped by Fastcar, 288 Estas Billet, 4-2-1 43mm Brospeed Branch, 50mm-57mm-63mm Exhaust] + THE PART (2B1 speacials) -Final power @ Autotrix 111wkw & 210wnm :drool: :evil:

2007 Velociti- WHITEWALKER [Std 2.0 bottom end, head gas flowed,ported, valve swirled, 276 Estas, 4-2-1 Branch, 57mm piping from front to back] :oops: :drool:
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Re: Supporting mods to run E95 Ethanol

Post by panic-mechanic »

http://www.wallaceracing.com/octane-mix-calc.php
http://www.iea-amf.org/content/fuel_inf ... properties

It's immaterial what the value is. Start with 5% - test on dyno - if not enough - do 10 % test on dyno etc. as soon as the knock goes away and power drops off at advanced timing you have reached what your motor needs.
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Re: Supporting mods to run E95 Ethanol

Post by PapaJo »

Don't guess the amount you add to a tank or known volume of fuel, that way you will never get the same mix again. Get a proper measuring jug or container which is marked and then mix up from there with your 93 or 95 grade fuel. Start with say 10L of fuel and add 1L of ethanol and work your way up from there until you get the right mix and then work out larger volumes to fill up your tank.

Other than that, I'm in on the comments from Panic and Thanas.
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Re: Supporting mods to run E95 Ethanol

Post by panic-mechanic »

Cannot add to an existing tank of fuel. You have to empty it - put in a pre mixed fuel that you know the value of. Test, drain next batch.
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Re: Supporting mods to run E95 Ethanol

Post by 8VALVE-zn »

Yes Panic exactly that...The plan is to roll in there with three different combo's, 1) 80% Pump & 20% Eth, 2) 70% pump & 30% Eth [this is ideally where I want it], 3) 50% pump & 50% eth.

The above has been agreed with my tuner, and he is happy to do it this way.

Previously, I would tune the car on pump and octane and then after tuning add a bit of Eth to supplement the octane booster. Little did I realise at the time, I was actually running the car very lean. It was a lesson learnt and I would not do that again. Instead just get it tuned for the Eth mix in the first place
2000 Golf 1 Chico- CRANKCASE [Std 2.0 bottom end, head gas flowed,ported & chopped by Fastcar, 288 Estas Billet, 4-2-1 43mm Brospeed Branch, 50mm-57mm-63mm Exhaust] + THE PART (2B1 speacials) -Final power @ Autotrix 111wkw & 210wnm :drool: :evil:

2007 Velociti- WHITEWALKER [Std 2.0 bottom end, head gas flowed,ported, valve swirled, 276 Estas, 4-2-1 Branch, 57mm piping from front to back] :oops: :drool:
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Re: Supporting mods to run E95 Ethanol

Post by HendrikCTI »

What is the engine specs as it currently is?
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Re: Supporting mods to run E95 Ethanol

Post by 8VALVE-zn »

Anyone has experience using E100 Ethanol? The kind that we have been using is Ethanol E95/E5 (95% Ethanol, 5% Ethyl Acetate)

E95 has a gap for inconsistency and hence the reason for opting for another option
2000 Golf 1 Chico- CRANKCASE [Std 2.0 bottom end, head gas flowed,ported & chopped by Fastcar, 288 Estas Billet, 4-2-1 43mm Brospeed Branch, 50mm-57mm-63mm Exhaust] + THE PART (2B1 speacials) -Final power @ Autotrix 111wkw & 210wnm :drool: :evil:

2007 Velociti- WHITEWALKER [Std 2.0 bottom end, head gas flowed,ported, valve swirled, 276 Estas, 4-2-1 Branch, 57mm piping from front to back] :oops: :drool:
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Re: Supporting mods to run E95 Ethanol

Post by THANAS »

Unless you're tuning to the ragged edge it shouldn't make much difference. This isn't a boosted motor so a small change in octane from variations in composition shouldn't carry much risk. See which blend makes the most power with your setup and stick with that, leaving some room in the map for a bad batch of fuel.
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Re: Supporting mods to run E95 Ethanol

Post by panic-mechanic »

Did you tune it on 95 ethanol and still found detonation before the power dropped off?
I think you are becoming a little obsessive compulsive about something that is only ever a problem in maybe lab experiments but will never have any effect in your real world use.
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Re: Supporting mods to run E95 Ethanol

Post by 8VALVE-zn »

Ok so firstly just to note, the car has been on the dyno four times thus far and two those times tuning was stopped due to bad fuel hence the fear of making my way down there with the wrong fuel again.

The grade of pump fuel is really bad, E95 does not have a few additives that's contained in E100 (VSR + RON Additive). I've done a lot of research behind E95 as well as E100, E100 seems like a better option from a consistency point of view when blending with pump fuel. This may seem like a stupid problem to most since its just a 2.0 8v, believe me the struggle is real though finding a fuel that works right. Further E95 varies here in Durban even when using the same supplier.
2000 Golf 1 Chico- CRANKCASE [Std 2.0 bottom end, head gas flowed,ported & chopped by Fastcar, 288 Estas Billet, 4-2-1 43mm Brospeed Branch, 50mm-57mm-63mm Exhaust] + THE PART (2B1 speacials) -Final power @ Autotrix 111wkw & 210wnm :drool: :evil:

2007 Velociti- WHITEWALKER [Std 2.0 bottom end, head gas flowed,ported, valve swirled, 276 Estas, 4-2-1 Branch, 57mm piping from front to back] :oops: :drool:
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Re: Supporting mods to run E95 Ethanol

Post by panic-mechanic »

Stopped why and in what quantities was it mixed at that stage.
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Re: Supporting mods to run E95 Ethanol

Post by THANAS »

Sounds like more hassle than it's worth tbh, also to calculate the required AFR you need to know the exact proportion of pump gas to ethanol/additives etc. Find a calculated mix with known AFR requirement, that's also known to work for your compression ratio and go with that. If the tuner is still stopping tuning based on fuel quality then your approach to mix bad pump fuel with ethanol will never work.

Drop compression or accept a lower level of advance/less than absolute peak power.
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Re: Supporting mods to run E95 Ethanol

Post by ALRoN73 »

This sounds like lots of effort to make 100kw
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Re: Supporting mods to run E95 Ethanol

Post by 8VALVE-zn »

Thanas, earlier on this thread Ryan helped with the AFR's yielded on certain mixes. Whilst my motor over was been built over, I asked Rino from Fastcar to calculate this for me however it wasn't done! So actual compression isn't known, it does irritate me greatly that this wasn't done and even more so now that I'm having issues choosing the right fuel.

A quick question, how does a port & flow affect compression? Reason I ask, before the rebuild the head was standard as well as the bottom end. The bottom end is still standard, however its just the head that is slightly different from before. I never had an issue with using my pump fuel octane mix before, full timing could be achieved. I mix exactly the same amount now but still have detonation issues. The power is definitely there as we did see a significant gain from 20deg timing to 23.5deg.
2000 Golf 1 Chico- CRANKCASE [Std 2.0 bottom end, head gas flowed,ported & chopped by Fastcar, 288 Estas Billet, 4-2-1 43mm Brospeed Branch, 50mm-57mm-63mm Exhaust] + THE PART (2B1 speacials) -Final power @ Autotrix 111wkw & 210wnm :drool: :evil:

2007 Velociti- WHITEWALKER [Std 2.0 bottom end, head gas flowed,ported, valve swirled, 276 Estas, 4-2-1 Branch, 57mm piping from front to back] :oops: :drool:
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Re: Supporting mods to run E95 Ethanol

Post by 8VALVE-zn »

ALRoN73 wrote:This sounds like lots of effort to make 100kw
:crazy: really? Just because I want to do it right?
2000 Golf 1 Chico- CRANKCASE [Std 2.0 bottom end, head gas flowed,ported & chopped by Fastcar, 288 Estas Billet, 4-2-1 43mm Brospeed Branch, 50mm-57mm-63mm Exhaust] + THE PART (2B1 speacials) -Final power @ Autotrix 111wkw & 210wnm :drool: :evil:

2007 Velociti- WHITEWALKER [Std 2.0 bottom end, head gas flowed,ported, valve swirled, 276 Estas, 4-2-1 Branch, 57mm piping from front to back] :oops: :drool:
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Re: Supporting mods to run E95 Ethanol

Post by Stompie »

ALRoN73 wrote:This sounds like lots of effort to make 100kw
+1 billion!

add boost
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Re: Supporting mods to run E95 Ethanol

Post by 8VALVE-zn »

I will make 100wkw all day everyday, clearly that isn't what I'm going for.....I shall patiently wait for proper help
2000 Golf 1 Chico- CRANKCASE [Std 2.0 bottom end, head gas flowed,ported & chopped by Fastcar, 288 Estas Billet, 4-2-1 43mm Brospeed Branch, 50mm-57mm-63mm Exhaust] + THE PART (2B1 speacials) -Final power @ Autotrix 111wkw & 210wnm :drool: :evil:

2007 Velociti- WHITEWALKER [Std 2.0 bottom end, head gas flowed,ported, valve swirled, 276 Estas, 4-2-1 Branch, 57mm piping from front to back] :oops: :drool:
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