tdi 1.4 seized at 93 000km - 50km after cambelt changed

[garth]

just had a 90 000km service done on polo 1.4 tdi 2006 model (was at 93 000k on clock). did oil change and all filters, had the timing belt, tensioner and roller done to be safe, although not needed until 120 000km service, also did full brake service so my wife and kids could do a 350km trip safely. car perfect up to this point, best car i have ever had. it had done 50 km since the service and then suddenly the oil light come on with a beeping and loss of engine power, wife changed down gears then had to pull off highway as had total loss of engine power (had 2 small kids in back and was in middle of nowhere). the mechanic who did the service says it is a broken oil pump chain that caised it and is not related to the work he did, my wife confirms there was oil in the car when checked with dipstick after seizing. can there be any link between the oil pump chain breaking or car seizing with loss of oil pressure and the car having just been serviced with the cambelt replaced?

i love this car but now sit with a decision to scrap it or spend 50k on a new engine...

i wanto to believe the mechanic is trustworthy, he is ex vww workshop manager goen of his own and i and others are happy with his work up to this date.

this car has always been service on time and with genuine parts and correct oil etc.

many thanks for any advice.

[Scatman]

This is really crappy to hear bud, I'm sure that it wasn't just a coincidence though. I think these motors' oil pumps work on a chain driven balancing shaft and oil pump assembly.

This is a link to the ELSAWIN workshop software that VW uses. http://www.clubpolo.co.uk/forum/index.p ... pic=229235

I'd get a second opinion from a VW dealer. Maybe they can scan the car and see what exactly went on just before the chain broke.

[hloni]

Eish man. Some dung news.
50k you say? What, u getting motor grom agent? Why not get import motor, do cambelt and maybe top end.

[garth]

thanks for advice, still waiting to see the engine and mechanic on monday, been looking on web for photos and info, seems the passat gave problems with this chain. not sure about the polo, but the skoda 1.4 tdi had some issues. the passat issue was fixed by vw quietly changing the sevice part to a belt driven oil pump. i am wondering if this seizure was an act of god and truly unrelated to the work done, or if the service perhaps put the stress on the chain for some reason like overtightening etc.? i don't want to get an old engine from overseas and have the same problem, but also love the car too much to ditch it as a write off. insurance says wear and tear not paying - i have comprehensive vehicle cover with santam, have not lodged claim yet with them as want to see the car and speak with mechanic first. someone is gonna pay and i hope it's not going to be me... self employed graphic designer with self employed wife and 2 kids to feed thus bugger-all money for the repairs.

[MK2 G60]

Those engine do brake oil chains have seen a few of them do it.
There is a sproket roller that gos.
I dont like the 1.4tdi's much because of a few issues.

[garth]

just spoke to vw uitenhage customer service, you can guess what they said: we can't guarantee the lifespan of any parts, your car is out of warranty, you did not use vw dealer for the sevice thus we will not help you. i have always been brand loyal to vw (always had beetles and kombis then this polo, make a living selling photos of old vw's in surfing scenes, my wife sells paintings of beetles and kombis - check www.j-bay.com for our artwork) so it's a hard one to swallow after spending so much money on their products.

spoke to mechanics and all agree that there is no link between the service/cambelt change and the oil chain snapping.

all say it should not have happened at the low milieage of 63 000km.

it's not a service change part, but looking on the internet i have found many instances of this model having this fault.

what recourse do I have now, is there a motoring industry ombudsman i can turn to next?

if nothing can be done then at least is there a way to warn all 1.4 tdi owners about the fact that they are all living on borrowed time and when their car seizes vw will fob them off?

i am so angry right now as all avenues for a way out of this are just about exhausted now.

book value = was about R75 000 when running, a remtec recon block with 100 000km guarantee plus recon turbo and injectors will cost me about R50 000

should i scrap it and move on or fix it and keep it?

i am wary of cheaper recons and smashed car engines, never know what you get...

[Smok3X]

Really sorry to hear bud... Keep your head up, there is a solution.

You say you have the Santam warranty? Then I say get cracking and report it, start the claims procedure ASAP as they can take very long to process.

The other option of an Import motor really is not such a bad idea hey... You can get a complete motor for under 10k and then chop and change parts according to what you need... Do the usual service items and you should be ready to go!

I would NEVER pay 50k for a repair!!!

[Scatman]

Really sorry to hear bud... Keep your head up, there is a solution.

You say you have the Santam warranty? Then I say get cracking and report it, start the claims procedure ASAP as they can take very long to process.

The other option of an Import motor really is not such a bad idea hey... You can get a complete motor for under 10k and then chop and change parts according to what you need... Do the usual service items and you should be ready to go!

I would NEVER pay 50k for a repair!!!

This is great advice. Take it

[garth]

hello again and thanks for the advice yet again

i spoke to brokers who said unless the car had been hit by a stone or pothole or some kind of collision they will not pay out

santam does not cover wear and tear - at the most they will pay for the towing fee minus the excess

i have paid R250 per month to them for over 5 years for the insurance, but what was the point?

searching the internet i have come across over 11 instances of the oil pump chain breaking on this specific model of car

if this does not constitute a common fault then I don't know anymore, i think vw should take the blame for crap design

i will never again trust this vehicle as a result, or feel any loyalty towards vw or santam

highly disappointed jaded and broke ex-vw lover - it's all about the money for them both, what has become of customer service?

i wish there was a motor industry ombudsman i could take it up with

at the very least i will go the newspapers and try find someone to get the word out to other owners of this model, or to any prospective buyers of vw cars

vw sucks in my mind now, never thought i would see the day...

[AlexTDi]

Comprehensive insurance and Motor warranty are two completely different things; you can't get upset at Santam if you don't even know the difference.

11 Instance's in how many cars sold? It's like saying Pirelli, Continental & 100's of other tyre manufactures have common faults because of all the blow outs people have experienced.

You are wasting your time expecting VW to pay for anything.

Just so that you can try all avenues and get the expected disappointment, here is the Motor Industry Ombudsman: http://www.miosa.co.za/

[SoDub]

I'm all for buying an import motor and swopping the parts needed into your car. If you don't trust it after that just sell the car. At least you will recoup a decent amount. If you sell it with a dead motor you won't get much.
Insurance is for accident related damage - so if it was caused by hitting a tree or a bumper bashing then they will pay. It took VW 4 years to do a recall on 5000 sportline tdi turbos that were constantly popping due to a flawed design. I highly doubt the motoring ombudsman will do anything but it won't hurt to find out if you have any options at all. Sorry about the motor, it's not a nice thing to happen and the cost to fix cars these days is ridiculous!

[JuST170]

...i wish there was a motor industry ombudsman i could take it up with...

Here we go: http://www.miosa.co.za/

[garth]

he he thanks for making light of the situation, first laugh of the day here.

off now to see the engine and see what options there are according to my mechanic.

i will leave an update as i really value any advice given to me here.

ok i feel a bit of love for vw creeeping back in, must be all the good years my beetles and kombis have given me back in the day.

[garth]

here's some proof of my history with vw

my longest running car, a 1958 1100 Wolfsburg Beetle:

http://www.j-bay.com/j-bay.com/PHOTOS/P ... N_1.html#5

how my wife sees it:

http://www.j-bay.com/j-bay.com/SURF_ART ... ON.html#11

[Scatman]

here's some proof of my history with vw

my longest running car, a 1958 1100 Wolfsburg Beetle:

http://www.j-bay.com/j-bay.com/PHOTOS/P ... N_1.html#5

how my wife sees it:

http://www.j-bay.com/j-bay.com/SURF_ART ... ON.html#11

That looks splendid! Really like the rustic feel of the paintings and the photos.

Keep us posted!

[panic-mechanic]

Yes most likely smply coincidence. Ou don'tq touch the oil pump drive chain when uou change the timing belt so please don't blame the mechanic that did that work. It's a pretty common failure on those engines and I pretty much don't like the 1.4 tdi either, probably not one of vw's best engines ever.
Sorry to hear but yes, go amd buy an import motor, change the chain and the belt and take it from there.

[garth]

hello again, saw the car yesterday and checked the chain had snapped, engine had gone blue in places from heat stress.

reckon the import option is the best for me financially although would love to get a remtec one with 100 000 warranty...

i am still going to take it up with dirk ellis volkswagen dealers where i bought the car, does not seem right that they get away with this common fault.

if no luck from them then will take it up with consumer complaints and ombudsman, they can't sell something with a known defect like this and get away with it.

after having trawled the internet for 2 days i have printouts here of about 15 people who this has happened to wit this model car.

after the same fault was found on the 4 cylinder VAG were forced to modify to a gear driven system, but have not done anything about the 3 cylinder except discontinue it and kept quiet about the problem.

does that seem like good customer service? am i over-reacting and should i roll over and take it from them or fight?

what chance is there of getting a lawyer to connect all the people who had this problem and do a class action suit against them?

farting in the wind i guess...

[panic-mechanic]

You willbbe wasting your time and money trying to fight this. You will get most likely absolutely no result. Save yourself the hassle, fix it, sell it and buy the 1.9 tdi.

[Bayz]

Hi Garth

First of all, i'm not a mechanic or anything, just a DIY enthusiast..

I was searching for something else and ended up on your post, so i basically just registered to give you a reply.

I'm guessing you have the AMF engine?? the 3 cylinder Polo?

anyways, good news is it is fixable, and you could get away a lot cheaper by skipping labor cost and doing it yourself.

Your engine is most likely not seized at all, and yes it is unrelated to the service and cambelt change, it just wear and tear like they say. but it should have lasted at least 180 000 k's i drive a 2003 polo and the chain only broke now on 244 000 k's

Anyways, the reason why the motor might seem to be seized is because the germans designed at catch on the casing that hold the chain tensioner. this basically catches the chain and locks up your crank, so that the engine stops completely (to avoid breaking anything more than what it should.

the down side to this is the sprocket on the crankshaft works with the catch, so it ends up breaking this sprocket (and you will most likely guess right, yes VW doesnt sell this sprocket separately no, you have to buy the entire crankshaft and you get the sprocket with) Vw quoted me on my crank R10 000 just for the crank and the sprocket.

So at the end of the day, me and my brother in laws took the car apart, I took the crank out, had a sprocket made up to fit the crank, took us 2 weekends and and less than 10grand to have the car was back up and running, ... lol i was in such a hurry i forgot to buy new crank seals .. resulting in having to get my cousin to help to take out the gearbox again to replace the seal .. so get them before hand lol ...

heres a pic of how the system works i took it while we were fixing my car ... hope this help you a bit

Regards

[Scatman]

Hi Garth

First of all, i'm not a mechanic or anything, just a DIY enthusiast..

I was searching for something else and ended up on your post, so i basically just registered to give you a reply.

I'm guessing you have the AMF engine?? the 3 cylinder Polo?

anyways, good news is it is fixable, and you could get away a lot cheaper by skipping labor cost and doing it yourself.

Your engine is most likely not seized at all, and yes it is unrelated to the service and cambelt change, it just wear and tear like they say. but it should have lasted at least 180 000 k's i drive a 2003 polo and the chain only broke now on 244 000 k's

Anyways, the reason why the motor might seem to be seized is because the germans designed at catch on the casing that hold the chain tensioner. this basically catches the chain and locks up your crank, so that the engine stops completely (to avoid breaking anything more than what it should.

the down side to this is the sprocket on the crankshaft works with the catch, so it ends up breaking this sprocket (and you will most likely guess right, yes VW doesnt sell this sprocket separately no, you have to buy the entire crankshaft and you get the sprocket with) Vw quoted me on my crank R10 000 just for the crank and the sprocket.

So at the end of the day, me and my brother in laws took the car apart, I took the crank out, had a sprocket made up to fit the crank, took us 2 weekends and and less than 10grand to have the car was back up and running, ... lol i was in such a hurry i forgot to buy new crank seals .. resulting in having to get my cousin to help to take out the gearbox again to replace the seal .. so get them before hand lol ...

heres a pic of how the system works i took it while we were fixing my car ... hope this help you a bit

Regards

Great post, I hope you'll hang around a little while longer and help contribute to the forum.

[garth]

thanks for that maybe i get lucky - i saw the vehicle on the hoist yesterday and checked the chain hanging there, seemed like a clean break, but have not seen the engine opened up to check the real extent of the damage - mechaninc showed me an area that seemed to be a bit blue, said that was the extreme heat damage - even using a power lever he battled to get the engine to turn - could that be the i think before i fork out any money i need to ensure that there is indeed major damage or see if there is a way to fix it for less than i thought or was told - to split the engine will that entail a lot of hours or should it be something that can be done in an hour or two? mechanic i use said that once he releases the piston and rings they will never fit back in properly... i might be wrong but i am sure that's what he said. i would prefer to try with the engine i have as it is a BNV version and not an AMF, it is a 2006 model. is it possible there is no real damage to this engine, just a locked up crank due to this catch you mentioned? many thanks! living in hope now...

[Bayz]

Great post, I hope you'll hang around a little while longer and help contribute to the forum.

I'm here now, so i'll probably be lurking around in the dark lol.. Like i say, i'm not a mechanic or something, so my mechanical knowledge is limited, but the knowledge i have acquired from experience i dont mind sharing

thanks for that maybe i get lucky - i saw the vehicle on the hoist yesterday and checked the chain hanging there, seemed like a clean break, but have not seen the engine opened up to check the real extent of the damage - mechaninc showed me an area that seemed to be a bit blue, said that was the extreme heat damage - even using a power lever he battled to get the engine to turn - could that be the i think before i fork out any money i need to ensure that there is indeed major damage or see if there is a way to fix it for less than i thought or was told - to split the engine will that entail a lot of hours or should it be something that can be done in an hour or two? mechanic i use said that once he releases the piston and rings they will never fit back in properly... i might be wrong but i am sure that's what he said. i would prefer to try with the engine i have as it is a BNV version and not an AMF, it is a 2006 model. is it possible there is no real damage to this engine, just a locked up crank due to this catch you mentioned? many thanks! living in hope now...

Well to get to the chain you dont have to drop any pistons at all. And yes, if he takes out the pistons you will have to replace all the rings as once they are out, they will almost never seat properly again

If your engine work on the same principle as mine. then if the engine is still closed with only the sump down you will see the chain hanging down the bottom on the driver side of the engine, but you wont turn the engine because the chain will be locked as in the picture above. The only way to get there is you have to take the cambelt pulley on the crank of (this is the hardest part, so use lots of Q20 penetrating lubricant and a moerse powerbar, then you have to remove the casing behind the pulley mine had like 5 small bolts holding it (this cover has got a crank seal on "remember to get one "

then once that cover is of, you should see more or less the same picture as above (if the motor is working on the same principle)
it most likely broke the tensioner as well, but thats not to expensive though, think i paid for mine something like R390 from Gold Wagen
if you look at the pic again, you will see that on mine there was only 3 allen key bolt holding the tensioner bracket, loosen this and the chain will drop out, crank will then move freely.

Like i said, unfortunately it brakes the top sprocket, this you cannot get loose nowhere, and the crank is only sold by agents.

remember to put the new chain on, on the right timing as well

I had to take my crank out, as the sprocket spun on the crank rounding of the edges that hold the sprocket. so I had it machined to fit the new sprocket i had made up.. if you do have to take out the crank you must really take care as what ever you take out there has to go back in exactly the way it came out, if you put just one big end mounting in wrong way around, or even one crank mounting the engine will get stuck (you can imagine what will happen if you start it that way.

however i was quite surprised.. but very lucky and happy indeed, i was also worried about the pistons dropping out but i noticed the Germans thought of everything, they put right at the bottom of the cylinder chamber little hooks that screws out, so while they are intact the piston wont drop past this point. ( but again i dont know if your motor is built the same way) .. but i'm pretty sure it is.. but if it doesnt have the hooks, you can simply put a long enough piece of wood across the motor and just jack the wood against the motor.. pistons wont go anywhere ....

but it shouldnt drop even without the wood, there should be lots of pressure in the combustion chamber keeping the pistons up in anycase .. so if the piston slips down by it self without you pulling it or crank pulling it down.. you most likely will have ring problems anyways (this what i'm saying here i dont know for sure but its just a guess)

so back to the topic, yes before you fork out any unnecessary money, make sure you can see behind that cover, and see if the motor turns or not with the chain completely removed.. if it doesnt turn with the chain completely removed, then it might be seized up .... but as long as the chain is still inside there i can say i'm 98% sure the engine is fine ...

[garth]

geez this sounds good if it's the same with my engine i will be able to save big time on the repairs.

i sent the info on to my mechanic, just waiting for him to be able to check it out.

if he still reckons the engine is seized then i want him to open it and show me what needs fixing.

he's trying to get me to go for an import or remtec but i really can't afford it.

there seem to have been loads (20+) instances of these models seizing, but maybe they were not actually seized at all?

someone has then made a packet on new blocks etc. - the conspiracy of vw's silence on a common fault now has expanded to include the bottom feeders making money out of others misfortune by avoiding telling anyone the stuff you have told us here.

or maybe not... will let you know what transpires next. gonna get another opinion from another vw mechanic tonight via phone.

thanks again for the new info you have brought to light here.

[panic-mechanic]

Bayz - the thoughtfull hook atbthe bottom of the sleeve is called an oil squirter. If the crank has gone blue then indeed you have an issue that is more than a broken and caught chain.

[garth]

howzit again - quick update - looks like a block from remtec with 100 000 km or 3 years cover is gonna be R28 000 plus all the bits and pieces to fit it plus turbo recon for R5 000 so looking at about R40 000 if I want to have a guarantee or new engine equivalent. this is what the mechanic recommends i do.

the other option is an import motor with 100 000 km on the clock but he can't find a BNV motor only AMF and we are not sure if it will mesh with the computer etc.

scared to do recon on my block with any old mechanic to save money, any suggestions?

my guy doesn't want to open can of worms, wants the trusted remtec option - he was top mechanic at vw dealer here for 16 years. only trusts remtec...

reckons there is no way the chain could jam the crank at freeway speed my wife was going when it happened.

if i do cheap fix i have to catch some poor bastard if i sell right away, can't do that i have to tell the truth...

running out of time, have to get mobile with two kids etc.

appreciate all the advice!