Um..... go grab some coffee....
GaVeN wrote:My question comes to a long lasting coating I can apply, that can help with some longevity.
Yes there are. And I will try give you my opinion
But first, a couple of principals that I think are important for anyone reading this to get their head around.
1. Using beading as an indicator of protection
Whilst most people (us detailers included) use beading as an indicator of the presence of some form of LSP (Last Step Protection AKA a wax, sealant or coating), it is not really
a true indicator on its own. By altering the contact angle made by a water droplet on the paint, you can get the water to roll up into beads, or to instead sheet off the car. So you could have a LSP designed to sheet, that then appears
to be 'not doing its job' in comparison to a wax with excellent beading. But if your chosen LSP exhibits certain properties upon application [like good beading] and and these then change, it is the most 'simple' trigger to use when deciding when to reapply. And everyone who claims to use some form of dishwashing liquid to 'strip' the wax of a car, is being fooled by the residual surfactants in the dishwashing liquid creating a sheeting effect on the paint, much as it was designed to do on your dishes to prevent soapy water sticking (a quick wipe with something like IPA over the area you had supposedly stripped would restore the beading).
Also, remember completely clean paint (I mean like no nothing on it) will bead water too.
2. Above and below surface defects will negatively affect beading
Imagine looking at a magnified cross section of your paint. If it was perfectly flat _______ water will more easily roll up into a bead on the surface.... but if you paint is rough ---v--^---^-^^^^ this is harder. So, any contamination on the paint needs to come off, and once any swirls etc are removed, the effective beading ability of the LSP would be better.
3. Above and below surface defects will negatively affect the longevity of your LSP
Simply put, the LSP is designed to bond to your PAINT not embedded brake dust/paint overspray/tree sap/tar etc.
4. Water behavior is determined by the top 'layer' of LSP
If you were to apply some LSP to your paint and then at some point topped that with another LSP (e.g. sealant topped with a wax) then the water behavior (beading, sheeting, self-cleaning, hydrophobicity whatever you want to call it) you see will be that of the top layer.
5. Different LSP's will each have their own characteristics:
And this is where the waters can get very
muddied. In my opinion, there is no right answer, only an answer that is right for you.
So, the characteristics...
Firstly, like I said, the waters are very muddied both by manufacturers marketing tactics creating confusing product descriptions, and the incorrect terminology unwittingly thrown about by the common car owner so first and foremost, you need to know what
the actual product is. For example, Meguiars Cleaner Wax is not something you apply for protection only - it has abrasives in it that you don't want to use often, and yes, there is some (albeit not very durable) protection in there too. Soft 99 have a product called Fusso Coat, which implies a 'coating' (like the Gyeon stuff you are asking about) but its actually PTFE based sealant and on their website they refer to it as a hard paste wax. They claim 12 months, but on daily driver in our country you'd probably see 4 to 5. Most spray waxes don't actually contain appreciable amounts of wax - Optimum spray wax does.
- beauty is in the eye of the beholder, and in the bigger picture of things, the influence the LSP has on the overall gloss of a car is minute, compared to properly prepping the paint (decon/polish), so personally this is one area I don't think warrants much contemplation.
- generally speaking you can say that waxes will last the least amount of time, sealants longer, and coatings the longest. But you do get waxes that outlast sealants and sealants that outlast coatings. There are marketing claims which are not always true on our climate. As mentioned above, contamination will influence longevity, as will 'topping' one product with another.
- This will weigh in differently for different people. So find a method that works for you
, so that you keep up with it. A couple of examples of the different ways you can get protection on the paint.
-Liquid wax or sealant that you apply with a foam applicator
-Spray wax or sealant you apply with a MF towel
-Spray sealant you spray on and pressure rinse off
-Paste wax sealant that you apply with a foam applicator
-Paste sealant sealant that you apply with a foam applicator
-Coatings applied with suede applicators
Ease of application
-Paint surface prep can go from almost nothing (wash, apply wax) to a lot (wash, decon, correct paint, paint cleaner [some coatings require specific products to be used), and this can dramatically influence your budget, both in terms of time and cost.
-WOWO (wipe on, wipe off) generally with a 'setting up time' in before wiping off. This time can vary dramatically from seconds to close on an hour.
-WOWA (wipe on, walk away). Quick and easy
-SOWA (Spray on, walk away) - something like Gyeon Wetcoat which is awesome for wheels with complicated designs
Does the product have any specific requirements like a min/max temp for application (more so with coatings), does it need special processes thereafter (such as curing with infrared lights in the case of some coatings), how quickly (in the case of coatings) must high spots be leveled off?
All will have their own 'rules' around how much time needs to pass before it can get wet, which you have to factor into 'ease of use'.
Ease of re-application
If for whatever reason (let's say you are 18 months down the road and need to polish the car) you need to remove your LSP and re-apply it, then it is easier to do with a wax or sealant, than it is to do with a coating, which would need to be polished off completely and re-applied at considerable cost.
Cost of protection
Don't shop based purely on the lable price.... work out how much product you use per application, and how long each application lasts, so that you can work out a cost of protecting your car for the year. Remember too that you need to factor in the prep that is required prior to application, and the cost of re-application when looking at this.
Frequency of application
Some guys (
Zubair) are waxaholics and enjoy frequently caressing their paint with their latest acquisition....others simply don't have the time.... so again, find something that works for you.... just remember the longer you go between applications the more contamination you will get, and there more chance there is for swirls to develop in the paint necessitating correction, so you need to find a balance.
Each product will have its own capacity to resist etching from bird crap, tree sap, and even water. There are no hard and fast 'rules' but again generally speaking waxes<sealants<coatings, but not always - for example, water spots are a real concern for coated cars, even leading to the advent of special 'water spot prevention products'... Decide how important it is to you (do you park next to a sprinkler, under a tree, is you tap water hard or soft etc)
Again a widely debated topic. I'd say that some coatings may improve the scratch resistance of some (very soft) paints, but would wager that when applied to an already 'hard' paint (like Mercedes cerami-clear) it will be a moot point. At the end of the day, waxes, sealants and coatings ALL require proper 'maintenance' methods and after roughly a 2 year period, all will be similarly 'scratched'. A coated car, washed incorrectly, could easily look terrible long before a waxed car that is looked after properly. This here should put scratch resistance into perspective http://www.autopia.org/forums/autopia-d ... tance.html
Some products are designed to fill any below surface defects (swirls, scratches, etching etc) more than others. If your paint is prepped properly (i.e. polished) this become somewhat of a moot point.
Some LSP's smell so nice you want to eat them, and other stink. Some are easy to use and some difficult. Some can't be used in the sun (and maybe you don't own a garage) so all of these things will influence how enjoyable it is to use, and if you don't enjoy using the product, you are not going to use it often....meaning the car will probably go with no LSP on it, which is not good.
Yip, its a thing... some associate the cost of high end waxes with their effectiveness, and so the more it cost, the better it must be, right? Like Swissvax's Crystal Rock at around roughly R18K per 200ml - there is no way I can accept that a R600 tub (300ml nogal) of say Collinite 915 is 30 times less 'effective' and so often you pay more for the street cred a product has, not its actual benefit. Using the latest stuff on the market is also very important to some, but there remain tried and tested products that have stood the test of time, which can be just as effective.
GaVeN wrote:The waxes after some paint correction/"top-up" care just does not seem to keep that beading effect after say 5-6 washes
Perhaps I am misunderstanding this, but if you do any form of paint correction (abrasive polishing) there will be NO wax or sealant left on the paint, hence no beading.
If you are only getting 5 or 6 washes (assuming weekly washing, and without abrading the paint, just washing) then I'd be interested to know what LSP you are currently using.
There are quite a few waxes and sealants locally that should have no problem getting you 20 washes to 40 washes. But prep (decon [and if required] polish, proper chemical clean of paint to remove oils [IPA or similar] in the case of sealants) is definitely important.
GaVeN wrote:I have seen a lot of ceramic coatings that repel water amazingly, and read up on a few other products.
Yes you get ceramic (silica or sometimes called 'glass') based coatings, some use polymer based resins, like Opticoat, and some are simply marketed as a coating, when in fact they are simply just sealants. In terms of their hydrophobic properties, again generally speaking, coatings are superior to waxes and sealants, but as already mentioned this is not always the case - for example, Fusso Coat (a wax or sealant, not a true coating) beads like a mofo, Sonax's Polymer Net Shield (a sealant) beads just as ridiculously as some coatings) and, bear in mind that as already mentioned, beading is not necessarily a good thing (water spots).
GaVeN wrote:What can you guys recommend to try out? Gyeon Q2m seems to be an extremely good product for what I want.
Now, there is different products, for different steps(As I understand them).
Gyeon Q2m cure: For a quick way to protect for a good finish without full correction.
Gyeon Q2m prime: For protection after correction to provide the finish I'm after
Gyeon Q2m MOHS: Hard coating, that gives optimum protection, and has the best water repelant features.
Would I have to do the Prime, and then MOHS, or can MOHS be done after correction?
Would there be a need for a wax after correction, the Q2m, or can I apply straight after correction?
Any other similar products? Experience with something like this? Any do's/don'ts?
I haven't yet used a Gyeon product I didn't like
Cure is more the 'maintenance topper' for an existing coating, than it is a coating itself. So every now and then you wash and apply Cure to an already coated vehicle. On its own, it will fare no better than most other spray sealants.
Prime is a quarts/silica based coating which would be a good candidate for you which *may* last up to 12 months - cost is around R800, and temps must be below 30 during application,
Mohs is the big gun in their range, and touts a 9 on the MOHS scale, but I personally think that is a load of crap - 9 on the pencil test, sure.... but no on the MOHS scale, or it would make it harder than tungsten carbide meaning you could try scratch the coating with a tungsten carbide rod and nothing would happen to it.... just doesn't seem possible to me, but I may be wrong. Cost is closer to R1k and should see more than 1 year in durability.
Your prep for either Prime or Mohs, would be wash, decon, correct the paint (there is no point applying a coating to swirled out paint as you will effectively be 'trapping the swirls' under the coating, with no way of fixing them during the life of the coating), and then a wipe down with Gyeon Prep.
So at the end of the day, we go full circle and I'll repeat what I said.... there is no right product, only a product that is right for you. My guess is you could drastically improve your current durability by using a product such as one of the Collinite waxes, a Sealant like Menerna Powerlock, Sonax PNS or Dodo Juice Iron Gloss, at a fraction of what a coating would cost you, but, should you decide that a coating is right for you, then by all means, coat away.
Lastly, here are a few more threads touching on coatings, which may be worthwhile reading, if you have any desire to read any more after by long response
http://www.vwclub.co.za/forum/viewtopic ... 0&t=184602
An extract below
http://www.vwclub.co.za/forum/viewtopic ... 0&t=190224
http://www.vwclub.co.za/forum/viewtopic ... 0&t=186616
lawrence wrote:OK so let me preface this post by saying I am offering my opinions and am not looking to 'knock' anyone else's.... these are my view points on coatings, as anyone of my previous customers' will attest to - it is pretty much the same conversation I would have had with them regarding coatings during our 'pre-detail' chat.....
Cost per month of protection.
Kyle wrote: lawrence wrote:
Kyle wrote:But - I honestly do believe that coatings are the future.
Going through international threads, they hardly ever talk about applying sealants...
I would say that if/when the price drops to something more easily swallowed by our detailing market, then yes coatings may be more common than say hybrids or sealants, but I don't think they will ever replace them completely.... Also, they are not some magic bullet that means you no longer need to maintain your paint properly.... so as always, customer education is key if you truly want to 'do right' by the customer....
The water becomes very muddied when you have people promoting a coating as a 'maintenance free' invisible shield that will protect your paint from acid rain etc etc
Gyeon quartz is R795, and that is enough for two cars, which ive personally tested and proven. Yes it is more expensive than using a normal sealant, but more than a year later and it's still on my paint
(Daily driven, parked outside in the sun/rain during the day at work)
I know you don't like the idea of a coating, but if you can offer someone superior protection, then why not?
I apply a wax over it for a little bit of extra shine, it's quite common practice
Gyeon Quartz R795 a bottle, 2 cars per bottle, R397.50/application. Let's work on the 12 months durability you have gotten (which is pretty much what the manufacturer claims) so that is
R33.12/month to protect.
Now compare that to Collinte 845. Its cost R250 for 473ml and (this is open to debate, so we can tweak the numbers if need be) I reckon at most you would use 25ml per application. So that is 18.92 application per car, or R13.21/application. This won't last you a year though.... but it should easily last 4 months (I have seen longer, but let's err on the side of caution)... so you will need 3 applications per year equating to R39.64 or
R3.30/month to protect
And this assumes that the detailer 'sells' the coating to the consumer at cost - the likelihood of that happening are open to debate. Of course then there is the application time that the detailer will charge, which will push the cost per application up significantly. So, if I was the consumer, to get 10 times the amount of money out of my pocket (probably more like 20 times once the application cost from the detailer is included), there has to be real VALUE in the coating.... where could that value come from?
A coating - has the capability
to provide a harder (more scratch resistant) surface than some OEM paint jobs.....for example, if I owned a Subaru.... I'd probably coat it as they are notoriously soft and scratch if you look at them funny.....If I owned a Mercedes with their Cerami-clear clear coat, the increased scratch resistance becomes more of a moot point. And even more of a moot point if you actually look after your car (in terms of washing/drying) anyway.... see 'Maintenance' below.
There is no way that a - let's call it a 'wax' (what most people think of as 'carnuba or 'show car wax' or a 'boutique wax, but in reality is actually in this day and age is actually probably a hybrid - i.e. blend of 'wax' and 'sealant') - is going to offer more scratch resistance than a coating. Same for a sealant. The coating wins, hands down...
When it comes to its ability to protect from other hazards such as bird bombs, etching, chemical crap and things like (overseas) road salt etc...things like the Collinite range will come damn close at an absolute fraction of the price.
Generally speaking coatings, due to their highly hydrophobic nature, will tend to win here. There are however some LSP's such as Sonax PNS, Soft 99 Fusso, that offer ridiculously great water behavior so perhaps the coating is the winner, but not at a ratio of 1:10
Coatings still need to be maintained - i.e. to have 'boosters' applied to them, which adds to the cost... You will still need to wash the car gently with decent tools and products
, but you will often hear how the consumer is told 'this coating is a permanent barrier for your paint and you can wash it with sandpaper'<-- or course I am exaggerating but you get the idea....it still needs to be cared for.
Again this is so subjective and unless you are entering a show n shine competition, in my opinion, is the least important quality to me of ANY LSP.... because the LSP is.... the.... last step PROTECTION.
But, you will hear that some provide a very glassy look, some like Modesta are raved about in terms of that wet look (but then we are not talking R400/application) some darken paint, some look like unicorns tears....blah blah blah.... beauty is in the eye of the beholder.... all I do know is if you are having to top your coating to improve the look of it, at the expense of its self cleaning abilities, you are negating the '10 times cost outlay'. Rather just find a 'beauty wax' at a fraction of the price.
Ease of 'repairs' to the paint?
Wanna fix anything on the paint the coating within the year that it is holding up, it has to be polished off - this will be more costly than polishing off a coat of wax/sealant and re-applying.
At the end of it's 1 year life cycle, the coating will need to be polished off to be re-applied. This means either the owner needs to invest in the time/tools/equipment to DIY it, or, he has to pay a detailer to do it for him. At the end of the 1 year, you could just re-apply another coat of 845. The coating loses IMO as the problem is exacerbated by coatings that tout 2 or more years worth of protection, as by that time, you car WILL need to be polished (I would think at least by the end of year 2, even the most careful of washing will result in enough wash marring / swirls etc that a polish is required) and at that point you simply polish off whatever protection the coating may have offered in years 3 or 4....
So ja, to summarize.... I still maintain that there is a very small market for coatings, even more so in the detailing climate that is South Africa.
Lambchop wrote:If you a detailer charging clients and you not offering coatings as an added option then you behind the times
How so.... I think if you are simply punting coatings because they are the 'latest greatest' thing (and I am not saying you are - we are taking 'in general') then you would be doing your customer a disservice by giving them something they don't necessarily need - they may, in which case, coat away....
Would I coat a customers car if that is what they wanted - of course. But with all of my customers, I try and guide them on how to best spend their money to get and keep their car looking how they want it to.... most of them do not see the ten or twentyfold increase in cost as 'money well spent'.... But hell, most people don't see the value in a detail, never mind a coating..... so like I said earlier, until the market is ready for it.... I don't think coatings are 'it'.....
Lambchop wrote:I seriously don't have time to wax my car every 2-3 weeks.
I don't even wash my own daily drive that often....
A wax that only got me 2 or 3 weeks of durability would have no place in my garage that's for sure!!!!!
Perhaps you should try some Collinite
Lambchop wrote:I find this forum very one sided when it comes to products .... As the saying goes. Don't mock it till you have tried it ..
I have to disagree.... here is a thread about Collinite, DNA have some testing going on for their range (and all the review seems to be honest and unbiased), Solo is selling Gyeon stuff, Autofinesse are a sponsor selling their range, as are Crazy Detailer, who as you know are all about 'variety'. All of the detailers use all kinds of products....
Shout back if you have any more questions