Management Systems: What you should know

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Management Systems: What you should know

Post by BlueBlob » Tue May 05, 2009 12:03 pm

This thread will try to answer all your questions regarding locally produced management systems, as well as some OEM ones.

This is a collaborative effort, so keep checking back, as the information will be updated/corrected regularly.

If there's anything you want to add/change/correct, please add it to the thread!

First, let's tackle a few general issues:

1. An aftermarket management system, on it's own, is not necessarily a performance enhancer. If your existing system manages the fuelling/timing properly, then you won't see much of an increase if any at all.

2. The choice of system can't be made alone. You need to consult your tuner. Every single tuner out there, will have a personal preference of system. Go chat to him, find out which system he prefers, then decide. Keep in mind that your choice could possibly limit the amount of places that will tune your car.

3. Understand the following: A bad tuner will cost you a motor. Regardless of the system, if it's not set up properly, it will melt. And this is not limited to aftermarket systems... It goes for anything. Engines work best at certain Air/Fuel ratios, and you need to make sure that your engine runs as close to this as possible.

4. Understand your needs vs the system's capabilities. There's no need to spend silly money on a R20k Motec system with everything from knock-sensing to WB Lambda, if you're converting a stock 1.8 carb to injection.

Now, just for interest sake, let's quickly touch on the differences between a carb and injection setup. This is not an in-depth discussion, it's a very broad overview.

Typically, in a carb motor, you have a fuel tank, a carburettor, and a pipe between them. The carburettor draws in air when you open the butterfly, which causes a venturi effect over a jet, that draws in the required amount fuel. Fuel pressure is normally quite low. Then, you have a distributor that distributes spark between the cylinders, causing the explosion. Exactly when it fires, happens in a variety of ways, which is not in the scope of this post.

In a fuel injected motor, things are slightly different. First, the fuel pressure is higher. It runs into a fuel rail, building up pressure behind the fuel pressure regulator, and then returns to the tank on a second line as soon as the pressure limit of the regulator is breached. This is why we need to change tanks when converting to fuel injection. So, now your fuel rail has fuel, and we're good to go. Next, you open the throttle... A few things happen; your management gets one, or many, signals from various places, saying that we are now drawing in air. It then uses the stored map (as well as sensors, depending on the system) to determine how much fuel must go in to run the motor, and triggers (pulses) the electronic injectors.

Common sensors are Manifold Absolute Pressure (MAP), Mass Air Flow (MAF) and Throttle Position Sensor (TPS). But there any many more, like Lambda (measures the Air/Fuel ratio), knock sensing, etc.

Ignition on a fuel injected motor is much the same, except you can modify the exact amount of timing you want, at a certain point in the map. Here we can get very technical though (but we won't), because unlike a carburettor motor, there's a variety of ways in which the engine determines the "Base line ignition", from which the values are modified. Chief among these, are Crank Angle Sensors, Cam Angle sensors and Hall Senders or Generators. The latter is shared with most carburettor motors, for the record.

So, let's sum up what we have here:

For an injected motor to run, you need a management system, injectors, fuel rail, spark plugs, a way of telling the management how much fuel to add, a way of telling the management what the current and requested timing value is, and some sensors to tell it what's happening. Those are the most basic requirements, in short.

Let's start the fun

The system that I use is the Perfect Power PRS2.

Pro's
* Cheap system that's well supported by the makers.
* Easy to install, if you have a basic understanding of management systems.
* Reads MAP, TPS, Lambda, Temperature
* Can read 4 window Hall Generator or 60-2 Crank Angle Sensor.
* Has plenty ignition drivers (can run multiple spark systems)
* Has plenty injection drivers. Can run Full Sequential, Batched, or all of them together.
* Depending on the version, has plenty external drivers. Can be used to trigger VTek, NOS, Meth Injection, Shift Lights, anything you want, depending on an input from either TPS, RPM, MAP, etc.
* It has compensation maps, based on Temperature and MAP, meaning you can set the cold-start conditions, or compensate for boost, altitude, etc.
* Can run a PWM controller like the N75 to control boost.
* Has Narrow-Band Lambda compensation. Will correct the fuelling automatically.
* Has motor-protect functions based on Temperature, MAP.
* Full TPS calibration.
* Can have 2 maps, and switch them on the go. Handy for having maps with different rev limiters, or different timing curves when you change to race-fuel, etc.

Con's
* Not many tuners can/will tune it. You're very limited.
* After buying the system, you will need to spend a bit more money on sensors.
* You need to add one or two 2k2 resistors depending on some sensors. (most 5V TPS's for instance) - This is explained in the manual though, so not much of an issue.
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Re: Management Systems: What you should know

Post by joggiep » Tue May 05, 2009 12:40 pm

Dictator

Pro's
Cheap system
More Tuners seem to like and support it
Easy to Install
Alititude Compensation
Works on single or multiple coils
Easy setup of sensors (Calibration)
Flap/Vtec/NOS/Shift Light/ RPM Switch
Launch and Anti Lag Control
Compensation Maps Bat. Voltage / Water Temp/ Air Temp /Trottle Pump

Con's
Sounds like the owner is full of $#@

Can't think of anything else
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Re: Management Systems: What you should know

Post by GolfII GTi King » Tue May 05, 2009 12:59 pm

Gotech Mini x
Pro's
Cheap (2k)
Easy to Install
Works on single coil
Easy setup of sensors
MAP, TPS, Water temp and Air temp
Lots of start up maps on their web site www.gotech.co.za

Con's
Rotor Phasing
Idle control

I have not had the chase to work with the other Gotech ecu's.
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Re: Management Systems: What you should know

Post by sjs » Tue May 05, 2009 5:31 pm

Image

I've had no problems with idle control.

The mini x has a launch control feature while standard dicktator doesn't.

The mini x has 32 load sites compared to the dicktator standard that has 15 load sites (this means that the Gotech can be more accurately tuned).

The mini x ecu does not require a tp100 igintion module as this is is in the ecu (you require an ignition module if you run dicktator standard).

My car starts 1st time, If it is very cold I just have to raise the rpm's a little for about 30 seconds before leaving. I left my car standing for 2 weeks and it started 1st time. I want make it known that I use the 4 pin mp9 water temp sensor.

With my 2l 8v with driving an average speed of 60km/h (no heavy traffic) I have got approx. 9l per 100km.
I must make it clear that it was installed by Gotech and runs a mild map which is more economical than a more aggressive yet more powerful map.

I must strongly recommend that the Gotech or any aftermarket management must be installed properly ( all the connections must be soldered together properly, the various earth wires must be "earthed "properly etc.) and the ecu must be dyna-tuned by a respectable tuner.
Last edited by sjs on Wed May 06, 2009 4:50 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Management Systems: What you should know

Post by andredp » Wed May 06, 2009 7:15 am

Just to add my 2c.

Ideally automotive wiring should not be soldered, but crimped. The environment in a car is a vibration environment, where crimping is better. Proper crimping requires proper tools though, so if you have not got those tools, then soldering is acceptable. Try to wire your wiring in such a way to not put any strain on the joints. Just for interrest, Boeing went from soldering to crimping in the planes we fly in.

Secondly, remember that these engine management systems are literally small computers. They need to be handled with care and especially when you connect up the electronic sensors etc to it, you should make doubly sure you have the wiring correct before switching on power. A good installation tip for the DIY guys is to mount the system, just connect power, and then check with the laptop that you can connect to the system. Then you wire in sensor by sensor, with each one first checking again with the laptop that the sensor is read correctly by the system. Lastly connect up all the outputs.
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Re: Management Systems: What you should know

Post by BlueBlob » Wed May 06, 2009 7:24 am

andredp wrote:Ideally automotive wiring should not be soldered, but crimped. The environment in a car is a vibration environment, where crimping is better.
Oh dear. I didn't know that. All my stuff is soldered. Well, 80% of it, before I got lazy. The balance is just taped together. He he.

Ok, crimping... Where to get, what tool do you need, etc? I've had plenty lugs work themselves loose from the wire before; will the same not happen with crimping?
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Re: Management Systems: What you should know

Post by andredp » Wed May 06, 2009 7:40 am

Hehe, ok I'll get some pics etc tonight from home. I build complete looms for the Lotus/Locost guys, which integrates the management system into the wiring harness, and all of it bar 1 connection is crimped. I'll get a pic of the correct crimping tool and also one of a pro crimp :)

PS. Never had a properly crimped lug come loose. You will see VW (or actually their wiring loom supplier) also crimps all connections.
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Re: Management Systems: What you should know

Post by neighbourhood terror » Wed May 06, 2009 1:37 pm

Just want to add if I may, that it's not entirely nessary to replace your fuel tank when converting to EFI. The big reason why the EFI citi tank is diffrent from the carb tank is the pick-up point for the fuel is in a diffrent place. The EFI citi tank has a big 16mm outlet on the right hand lower corner of the tank, and slight internal diffrences where as the carb tank has a central mounted pic-up, the same place as the fuel level sender. The reason for this is to help with fuel surge.
If you are unable to or don't want to change the tank you can run a surge tank with a highvolume (not high pressure) pump drawing fuel from the same plumping as the carb tank feeding the surge tank, and then use the recomended 8mm supply lines to the fuel rail with a high pressure pump.

Pro's
Fuel surge is eliminated completely
Having the pump closer to the rain means more reliable high pressure feed to the rail
No need to change the fuel tank
No need to change the fuel lines from the tank to the rail to 8mm (STD carb lines are 6mm)

Cons
It does add two additional pumps to the fuel system (cost)
Allot more plumbing is needed, under the bonnet
Depending where you mount the pumps, more noise from them can be heard
Surge tanks can be difficult to optain and costly (still less than a new tank in some instances)
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Re: Management Systems: What you should know

Post by graham savage » Wed May 06, 2009 3:25 pm

Ooops me too, I have been soldering joints for many years and not had an issue tho? Soldered and heat shrinked then harnessed
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Re: Management Systems: What you should know

Post by sjs » Wed May 06, 2009 4:44 pm

That is interesting about the crinking. You learn something new everyday! In my mini x manual they only say you must solder the connections and when they did my harness they soldered mine too.
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Re: Management Systems: What you should know

Post by andredp » Mon May 11, 2009 1:21 pm

Sorry for taking so long, but here is as promised(sorry for the bad quality pics).

Neatly laid out wiring loom for a Lotus/Locost (main part of it, 50% done) :
Image

A proper crimp:
Image

Proper crimping tool on the right(please throw the "tool" on the left out the nearest window :crazy: ) :
Image

Pic of the XMSL, and soon to be replaced with XMS4A-2 as our race standard management:
Image

PS. Perfect Power has some good prices/specials on their management systems at the moment, PM me if you want info.
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Re: Management Systems: What you should know

Post by andredp » Mon May 11, 2009 1:28 pm

Lambda probe you will need should you want to play a bit and try your hand at tuning:
Image

As mentioned above, a new tank is not strictly needed, one of these tanks can be used (supplied by another entusiast in the club :drool: ) :
Image

And this is how it is plumbed in on our racecars:
Image
Note the pre high pressure pump filter inlet and outlet is actually 10mm.

Oh and here is some pics of the older Gotech EMS's for ID purposes.
Gotech MFI:
Image
Image

And the Gotech Pro(no dial on the front) :
Image
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Re: Management Systems: What you should know

Post by OcTaLL » Mon May 11, 2009 6:29 pm

Thanks for this thread. When shopping for something you really know nothing about and is at the mercy of a sales person you nearly always end up buying the wrong thing.

Like buying a video camera and only 2 months after you realize you bought the wrong one and end up kicking yourself.

Thanks guys for this thread, I'm sure it will help alot of us in the market for 1.
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Re: Management Systems: What you should know

Post by Kibim » Mon May 11, 2009 8:57 pm

Nice to see some other Perfect power systems out there. big +1 on finding someone to tune it tho! I was given some leads by perfect power themselves, but landed up installing the system myself as no-one wanted to touch the volvo :( Even after I installed everything (solder and heatshrink) I battled to find someone willing to work on the car. Think maybe the tuner's out there are scared of breaking the volvo :p When I eventually did, i got messed around by a 'reputable' tuner. Long story short, I kinda tuned the system myself, with the help of one of the best tuners around. Volvo had all the sensors I needed, so managed to get AFR's reasonable.

The Perfect Power system I have is a piggy-back, running boost, fueling and timing. As I don't know too much about timing, i've left the stock ems to do it's own thing there. The install took me 2 hours tops, and I had the car running in 15min after the first start. I'd changed the stock injectors (350cc) to 750ccs. Had to do some major clamping on MAF sensor. As some of you know the internals and turbo, wastegate, Intercooler, radiator, oil system and exhaust system are all custom on the volvo. So that's alot of stuff to get working together.

I cannot say enough good things about the pre-sales and after-sales support I recieved from Garth at Perfect Power, and continue to do so. I just wish Perfect Power had a dyno so they could set the system up 'perfectly' for me.
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Re: Management Systems: What you should know

Post by joggiep » Tue May 12, 2009 7:07 am

Kibim wrote: I cannot say enough good things about the pre-sales and after-sales support I recieved from Garth at Perfect Power, and continue to do so. I just wish Perfect Power had a dyno so they could set the system up 'perfectly' for me.
Speak to Stephan .. Panic Machanic he'll be able to set up that volvo nicely for you. He did the SMT6 Install on my prev. Polo and did the install and tuning on my Jetta . He has tuned quite a few peoples kars on this BB.
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Re: Management Systems: What you should know

Post by Super Stu » Tue May 12, 2009 8:13 am

I have had cars dynoed at Perfect Power, they do have a dyno as far as I know.
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Re: Management Systems: What you should know

Post by Kibim » Tue May 12, 2009 9:56 am

Super Stu wrote:I have had cars dynoed at Perfect Power, they do have a dyno as far as I know.
They're busy rebuilding thier dyno room, will not be ready for a while apparently.
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Re: Management Systems: What you should know

Post by Bugz » Tue May 12, 2009 9:45 pm

Guys has anyone installed and played around with the new gotech pro x?
Reviews,comments,critisisms?
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Re: Management Systems: What you should know

Post by maranou » Thu May 14, 2009 3:44 pm

Dave Ingledon also makes surge tanks R650 from aluminuim to mount in engine bay,i have one and looks :drool:

Image

Image

Has input ontop for feed and return of highfeed low pressure pump from tank and point for feed to high pressure pump and return from fpr and a drain hole also if wane drain feul :cool: :cool:


I just wane ask one thing,why all the good tuners in cape (dynotech/mace) doesn't prefer or doesn't dyno dicktator and it has a bad rap in the cape,but has good price and sworn by in joburg?Only gotech is king in cape?
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Re: Management Systems: What you should know

Post by 2DR_GT VDUB » Thu May 14, 2009 10:49 pm

Thats a good question. A close frewnd of mine and also my mechie. Works down the street from [email protected] automotive. He says that most of the cars that comes in for dyno tuning runs gotech management. The other day my bud with his a3 1.8t goes to dyno tech for a tune. Lol he could only do a power run cause the chip he has they have tuned it before and heard off it. Lol now he has to take his mechie who installed the chip and knows the ins and out he has go with him to dynotech and tune it himself. So i guess it comes down to what the tuner is comfortable with...
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Re: Management Systems: What you should know

Post by Otterjasie » Mon May 18, 2009 12:30 pm

What sensors & other electronics does one need to convert from carb to MP9, apart from the hardware (head, intake, TB)?
Does Dicktator/Gotech require the same sensors & electronics?
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Re: Management Systems: What you should know

Post by neighbourhood terror » Mon May 18, 2009 2:42 pm

The MP9 system needs that fancy mulit-pole water temp sender. The one that fits into the plastic bit on the front of the cyl head. Aftermarket systems can also use this sender ... or any other water temp sender. The only ill effect of not using this sender is the ECU cannot tell what the water temp is. When the std MP9 water temp sender on my Citi 1.4i stopped working it got stuck in 'cold start' and ran very rough and was heavy on fuel. My race car has no water temp sender to the ECU so it's got no cold start MAP. But thats ok, nothing a few minutes of idle in the pits doesn't fix :grin:
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Re: Management Systems: What you should know

Post by Otterjasie » Mon May 18, 2009 2:55 pm

Currently I've got the following sensors on the list:

Manifold Absolute Pressure (MAP) Sensor
Water Temperature sensor
Throttle Position sensor (TPS)

Further items:

A three-pin coil instead of the two-pin ciol used by carb engines.
The distributor needs to be fixed so that no advancing (pneumatic and mechanical) takes place.

Is there anything else I'm missing?
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Re: Management Systems: What you should know

Post by neighbourhood terror » Mon May 18, 2009 3:07 pm

That looks like them all. What intake are you using? The std MP9 item should have the sensors yoo need. The MAP sensor is the little black sensor that bolts on the left had side of the manifold. The TPS is part of the throttle body. It might be easier to just buy a new distributer. I think they're R180 at Volkspares for the complete dizzy.
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Re: Management Systems: What you should know

Post by Otterjasie » Mon May 18, 2009 3:21 pm

I'm using std MP9 intake. So yes, the TPS and MAPS are in place.

I almost forgot another important electrical part!

High Pressure Fuel pump unit. Since I'm planning this mod for a MkII I will simply install the standard CLi/GTi fueling system. This consists of a lifter pump that "lifts" the fuel out of the tank and the high pressure pump unit. Then the high pressure lines from the high pressure pump to the engine bay.
1990 Jettta CLX - Writeoff
Wildcat branches & Freeflow
Estas 272 camshaft
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