My 2.0 8V conversion - Another update (28/08/2006)

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MacMan
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My 2.0 8V conversion - Another update (28/08/2006)

Post by MacMan »

Well as a few of you may know, I have been busy with a 2.0 8V conversion on my 1.6 carb Citi. Everything seems to be going ok, only problem being that things are taking longer than I expected.

Anyway, for those of you that are interested, here are some pics of my progress:

The first step was to source a fuel injection head and this I did in the form of a complete 2002 Polo 1.6 head.

This is what the head looked like when I got it.

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And this is what it looked like after I cleaned it up a bit.

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The stock cam is in very good condition and notice that although the Polo head is hydraulic, it has 5 cam caps as appose to the usual 4.

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The next step was to source a fuel injection tank... this one comes from a 2005 VeloCiti 1.6i, so it is still pretty new.

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Then it was a case of lifting the rear of the car as high as we could get it and then dropping the rear axle so we could swap the tanks.

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Along with the tank I also got the fuel lines from the same car. The fuel lines from the fuel injected Citi's are almost twice as big as the carb fuel lines. If you are using the fuel injection tank, these lines are a must.

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The fuel gauge sender on the new tank is exactly the same as the old one, so the sender plug is a straight fit.

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All that was left to do was route the power wires for the fuel pump. These I routed through the same grommet as the fuel gauge sender wires.

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Once that was done, I turned my attention towards stripping the head off the old motor to check what the bores looked like. Initially the condition of the bores was going to be the deciding factor as to what size motor I was going to build.

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After the head was off, it was time to lift the bottom end and gearbox out of the engine bay. For this I used a 1-ton engine hoist that I rented for R75. Because I didn't put the head back on, I used a tow strap to wrap around the engine and lift it out.

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After lifting the motor out, I couldn't just leave it hanging there :D so I needed to find a place to put it. So I got our trusty old wheelbarrow, put one of my sister's old tyres in and lowered the engine onto it. I then set about seperating the bottom end and gearbox, and removing the flywheel and clutch assembly.

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Although I am changing them, the flywheel, clutch plate and pressure plate don't look too bad considering they have endured almost 170k kms of abuse. :)

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While on the clutch / flywheel gearbox side of things, I managed to source an FZZ box complete with driveshafts and mountings. This box has 800km on it and the only reasons I got it was because it is new and I managed to sell my old DGG for the same price I paid for the FFZ. :)

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Ok at this stage I was pretty much set on doing a 1900cc conversion so I went and got what I thought was a decent 1800 crank. Turns out it was one of the cast cranks and not a forged one like I wanted. Obviously this was not good enough so I sold it the next week for the same price I paid for it. No harm, no foul.

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Then it was time to strip the bottom end and remove the old crank and pistons so the block could be sent to the engineers.

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The old crank, big ends and mains were also in good condition considering how hard I drove the poor motor.

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As with most things concerning cars, cleaning is always a necessity. There was alot of light brown build-up in the sump, so I thought it would be a good idea to clean it.

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Then it was time to start sourcing the rest of the parts I needed. I managed to get the new type Citi Golf downpipes / branches for nothing. I will use this for now until I get a proper branch fitted.

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By this stage and after doing lots of research, I decided that going 2.0 would be simpler and maybe better than going 1900, so I set about sourcing a 2.0 forged crank, which are apparently pretty rare and rather pricey. I managed to pick this one up for a really good price and it is in perfect condition. The big end and main journals are all standard and all they needed was a polish.

Here you can see a forged 1800 crank (top) and and my forged 2.0 crank (bottom).

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I then bought Golf 3 GTi pistons because I though they would be correct, but it turns out the compression height of the pistons is too high so they would have stuck almost 3mm out the block. Plus the gudgeon pin size is 21mm and my conrods use 20mm gudgeon pins so they wouldn't have worked anyway.

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Just to be on the safe side I sent the head in to have the valve guides and stem seals replaced. I opted to buy the valve stem seals from VW because they were cheap enough... R14 each.

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At the same time I also bought a Victor Reinz bottom gasket set and head gasket. Apparently Victor Reinz is the OEM stuff that VW uses, so that is why I chose it.

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So after finding out that the Golf 3 GTi pistons weren't going to work, I took them back and swapped them for a set of KS Kombi 2.6 pistons. I was also told that I would be lucky if I found KS big end and main bearings, so I guess I must be REALLY luck because I managed to find KS big ends and KS mains with the seperate thrust washers which are apparently better than the integrated ones.

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I then ordered a new 210mm SACHS clutch kit, 210mm flywheel, Febi 2.0 oil pump, flywheel bolts, conrod bolts and nuts and obviously head bolts from Nico at Goldwagen.

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I have only recently gotten around to mounting the fuel pump. I think I was delaying it because I had no idea where I was going to mount it. But I took a good look at it yesterday and found a good place to mount it... it is bolted onto the body, in between the fuel tank and the edge of the chassis by the right rear door.

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On Friday I got all my stuff back from the engineers (Kempton Automotive) and this is the work they did for me:

1) Bore the block from 81mm to 82.5mm
2) Replace valve guides, valve stem seals and skim the head
3) Check crank and polish the journals
4) Machine the fuel pump lobe and distributor gear on the intermediate shaft
5) Clearance the block to allow the 2.0 crank to swing
6) Skim the old 200mm flywheel (my mistake) :oops:
7) Dummy assemble and the block and CC (check the compression ratio)
8 ) Check the small end bearings

Luckily the mods to the block were minimal, although the distributor gear on the intermediate shaft looks rather narrow now, but apparently it works. :shock:

And the compression ratio worked out to be 10:1 which is perfect.

The head after coming back from the engineers... clean.

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The 82.5mm bored block with the 2.0 head gasket in place.

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The machined intermediate shaft... notice the distributor gear.

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That is all I have for now. I will take more pics when I start assembling the motor. Tomorrow the rotating assembly is going for balancing. :)
Last edited by MacMan on Fri Mar 30, 2007 12:19 am, edited 14 times in total.
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Patience is the ability to idle your motor when you feel like stripping your gears.
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Post by murdoc »

Good thread 8)
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Post by ved »

Excellent thread MacMan..... keep the details and pics coming.....
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Post by Puben »

Excellent Stuff Macman, alot ot effort you put in (brings a tear to my eye), i went through the same conversion, but now i wish i did it like how you did yours, alot of work involved, looking really good. Your cabs really gonna run well when it's complete. Well Done

Keep us updated!
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Post by slim shady »

The intermediate gear looks very thin eh? I got around that problem by taking off a little from both the gear and no 3 rod-bolt head...hope it holds up :shock:
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Post by MacMan »

Thanks for the replies guys, I appreciate the kind words.

@ Puben -> Yeah I have put alot of effort (and money) into this project so far, but in the end I am sure it will be worth it... I hope. :)

@ Slim -> Yip the intermediate gear looks pretty thin (it is about 5.5mm), but the engineers say they have done quite a few and no problems yet.

How much did you take off your intermediate gear?
'20 SEAT Tarraco XC 1.5 TSi
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Post by Puben »

MacMan - All rotating parts balanced?

MP9?

I did the 2e conversion a couple of months ago, runs very well, but am doing another 2.0 8valve conversion middle of November so i'm getting ideas from what you've done.

Good Stuff!
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Post by MacMan »

Puben wrote:MacMan - All rotating parts balanced?

MP9?

I did the 2e conversion a couple of months ago, runs very well, but am doing another 2.0 8valve conversion middle of November so i'm getting ideas from what you've done.

Good Stuff!
Yip all rotating parts balanced... I want a smooth revvy motor. :wink:

For now I am going to be running a remapped 2.0 MP9 box, but later on the idea is to go with aftermarket EFI.

Cool... let me know if you have any questions... I will be glad to answer.
'20 SEAT Tarraco XC 1.5 TSi
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Patience is the ability to idle your motor when you feel like stripping your gears.
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Post by Puben »

Thanks MacMan...for balancing would you recommend Fulrace Engineering or Anyone else?

I'll have alot more questions when i start my project!

Thanks

Good Luck
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Post by MacMan »

Puben wrote:Thanks MacMan...for balancing would you recommend Fulrace Engineering or Anyone else?

I'll have alot more questions when i start my project!

Thanks

Good Luck
Hey no problem.

Yes after asking alot of people, it would seem that Fulrace and also Dynamic Balancing are the people to use for balancing. I am taking my stuff to Dynamic Balancing because they are close to where I stay.

Thanks, I am gonna need all the luck I can get. :wink:
'20 SEAT Tarraco XC 1.5 TSi
'12 VW Up! 1.0 MPi

Ex:
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Post by slim shady »

I took about 2mm off my gear as I'm a bit worried that the gear might strip. Mine is a 1.8 8V block pressed into service as a 2lit 16V race car motor ....I'm just a bit scared that the gear might strip at high rpm , yours will probably be safe though
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Post by EX-DOHCTOR »

NIce thread macman!

You've sovled one of the problems that was bugging me with my 2l upgrade - where to fit the fuel pump.

1 question though. The power lines for the pump... where are they coming from? Will I need a spot on my fuse box for it?

Basically can you give me any tips for wiring it up?

Also, when I get to the stage of doing mine - would you mind coming round and having a look?

I figure you should be able to help with a few of the smaller details in the mod.

Thanks for all the spares you helped me with btw.

Oh yeah, my Velociti interior? Any news?
2014 - VW Jetta 6 - 1.6 TDi DSG
2000 - VW Golf 3.5 Cabrio - 2.0
1980 - VW MK1 GT - 1.8 Carb - https://www.vwclub.co.za/forum/viewtopi ... 1&t=153861
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Post by Glitter »

Very nice and tidy setup so far
Keep up the good work and keep the pic's comming
:D :D
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Post by fismail »

Got motor back from Northerns Engineering , must just get syncros for my gearbox and stick all in and stick on the head and change the ECU ...

Then to play with everything else ..

Some block and piston pics ...

http://www.okka.org.za/pics/car/engine/ ... n%201.html

http://www.okka.org.za/pics/car/engine/ ... n%202.html

http://www.okka.org.za/pics/car/engine/ ... n%203.html

http://www.okka.org.za/pics/car/engine/ ... n%204.html

http://www.okka.org.za/pics/car/engine/ ... bolts.html

Cleaned whatever I could ...

http://www.okka.org.za/pics/car/engine/ ... parts.html
98 VW Citi Golf Chico Lux - written off
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01 BMW 320d/M sportpack / topaz blue - sold
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Post by slim shady »

Looking good Firoz! I see you plan to use Ford V8 rodbolts in the new motor...just beware of two things:
1.The bolt head needs to be raduised to fit the VW rod , otherwise they loosen and BOOM!
2.The torq spec is different: 28lbs/ft IIRC - confirm plz. Always use the moly lube on the threads to get accurate tightening. DO NOT angle tighten the bolts like the VW ones as you will either weaken or break them right off.
3.Torq each bolt at least five times to get consistent results
4.It's a good idea to torq the bigends and then have them measured for roundness before assembly.

Good luck Charl L
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Post by MacMan »

fismail wrote:Got motor back from Northerns Engineering , must just get syncros for my gearbox and stick all in and stick on the head and change the ECU ...

Then to play with everything else ..

Some block and piston pics ...

http://www.okka.org.za/pics/car/engine/ ... n%201.html

http://www.okka.org.za/pics/car/engine/ ... n%202.html

http://www.okka.org.za/pics/car/engine/ ... n%203.html

http://www.okka.org.za/pics/car/engine/ ... n%204.html

http://www.okka.org.za/pics/car/engine/ ... bolts.html

Cleaned whatever I could ...

http://www.okka.org.za/pics/car/engine/ ... parts.html
Um, no offence but could you please create your own thread instead of hi-jacking mine?
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'12 VW Up! 1.0 MPi

Ex:
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Patience is the ability to idle your motor when you feel like stripping your gears.
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Post by MacMan »

EX-DOHCTOR wrote:NIce thread macman!

You've sovled one of the problems that was bugging me with my 2l upgrade - where to fit the fuel pump.
Thanks Scott. 8)
EX-DOHCTOR wrote:1 question though. The power lines for the pump... where are they coming from? Will I need a spot on my fuse box for it?

Basically can you give me any tips for wiring it up?
Ok well I am using an MP9 harness, so the fuel pump wires are coming from the harness. Yes preferably use a fuse in the power wire to your pump, just in case something goes wrong... you don't want your car catching fire. You are going to be running PRS right? I think you will also need to use relay for your pump.
EX-DOHCTOR wrote:Also, when I get to the stage of doing mine - would you mind coming round and having a look?

I figure you should be able to help with a few of the smaller details in the mod.


Sure no problem, just give me a shout.
EX-DOHCTOR wrote:Thanks for all the spares you helped me with btw.


Glad I could help... I know how difficult it is to find a FI tank, let alone a decent one.
EX-DOHCTOR wrote:Oh yeah, my Velociti interior? Any news?
Well the guy sold that one I told you about and he hasn't been able to get another one since. I told him to call me as soon as he gets one, so as soon as he does, I will let you know.
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Post by EX-DOHCTOR »

Great man! Thanks alot.

Fantastic thread.
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Post by Joe Soap »

MacMan wrote:
Um, no offence but could you please create your own thread instead of hi-jacking mine?
Second that motion. This is a great and inspirational thread. As opposed to a 10 page " Frank Sinatra meets 50c - I did it my bs way.... over and over again.....over and over again...... over and over again " junk thread.

Keep posting Macman.
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Post by fismail »

Joe Soap wrote:
Second that motion. This is a great and inspirational thread. As opposed to a 10 page " Frank Sinatra meets 50c - I did it my bs way.... over and over again.....over and over again...... over and over again " junk thread.

Keep posting Macman.
Heh , don't pay tribute now :D
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Post by fatbastard »

Joe Soap wrote:
MacMan wrote:
Um, no offence but could you please create your own thread instead of hi-jacking mine?
Second that motion. This is a great and inspirational thread. As opposed to a 10 page " Frank Sinatra meets 50c - I did it my bs way.... over and over again.....over and over again...... over and over again " junk thread.

Keep posting Macman.

Whahahaha that one had me in stitches. :P Thanks for a good laugh!!! :lol:
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Post by panic-mechanic »

I have done lots of 2l conversions like that and cut the intermediate shaft gear to 5mm. I have yet to see one strip. If nothing goes wrong - like a seized oil pump or distributor it will be fine.
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Post by MacMan »

panic-mechanic wrote:I have done lots of 2l conversions like that and cut the intermediate shaft gear to 5mm. I have yet to see one strip. If nothing goes wrong - like a seized oil pump or distributor it will be fine.
Yeah Mike at KAR said it will be fine... this one is about 6.5mm wide.
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Post by MacMan »

Just a small update on my project...

On Wednesday I took the crank, pistons, conrods, pressure plate, flywheel and intermediate shaft to Dynamic Balancing in Edenvale to get the whole lot balanced. Very nice place and very professional and friendly people there.

While the guy was signing my stuff in, I had a look around and saw quite a few boxes of Wiseco pistons and Arrow rods waiting to be balanced as well. :shock:

Then after the guy was done signing my stuff in, I asked him about this awesome looking crank he was busy balancing. Turns out these guys also do the balancing work for Nissan Motorsport and the crank is from one of the rally Nissan V6 Hardbodys... and the whole thing weighs 7Kgs!! :shock: In comparison my 2.0 crank weighs a hefty 14Kgs. :o

Anyway the guy that did the balancing said the flywheel and crank were only a few grams out, but the intermediat shaft was over 7grams out.

To give you an idea of their work, VW manufacture/balance the parts at the factory to within 7Gram..... these guys balance the parts to within 0.01Grams. :shock:

Here is a copy of the job card for those that are interested:

Image
Last edited by MacMan on Sun Jan 08, 2006 11:02 pm, edited 1 time in total.
'20 SEAT Tarraco XC 1.5 TSi
'12 VW Up! 1.0 MPi

Ex:
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'04 Golf MKIV GTi.:R
'99 Citi Golf 2.0i

Patience is the ability to idle your motor when you feel like stripping your gears.
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Post by golfvr6 »

You getting there nicely...
Just as a matter of interest, how much did Dynamic balancing charge you :?:

Your car going to be ready for the jamboree :?:
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