BWA, BWJ, BHZ, CDL - Forged Internals

[DazzG_177]

Hey guys

Just would like to hear some views & opinions on others who have have been through this exercise.
Rebuilding one of the above engines while keeping stock K04 (MAYBE gtx later)
What Rod & Piston combination would you use and why?
CR would most likely be 10:5.1 or 9:5.1
82.5mm or 83mm bore?
JE, Mahle, Wossner or Wiesco Pistons?
Would the oil pump need to be replaced or inspected as well?

Reason I ask is I am hearing too many different views on more specifically the pistons.
I know OEM are semi forged Mahle on the BWJ, BHZ & CDL.
JE are not daily friendly more so a race application and you would have to be worried with clearance issues with piston expansion?
Mahle are good but expensive?
Wossner are the preferred 'drop in' solution?

ARP Bolts, Calico bearings etc the rest of it is a given just the above I would like to shed some more light and hopefully others can learn as well.

[vdub caddy]

Hey guys

Just would like to hear some views & opinions on others who have have been through this exercise.
Rebuilding one of the above engines while keeping stock K04 (MAYBE gtx later)
What Rod & Piston combination would you use and why?
CR would most likely be 10:5.1 or 9:5.1
82.5mm or 83mm bore?
JE, Mahle, Wossner or Wiesco Pistons?
Would the oil pump need to be replaced or inspected as well?

Reason I ask is I am hearing too many different views on more specifically the pistons.
I know OEM are semi forged Mahle on the BWJ, BHZ & CDL.
JE are not daily friendly more so a race application and you would have to be worried with clearance issues with piston expansion?
Mahle are good but expensive?
Wossner are the preferred 'drop in' solution?

ARP Bolts, Calico bearings etc the rest of it is a given just the above I would like to shed some more light and hopefully others can learn as well.

JE Pistons I don't think will be that bad on a daily, you will obviously suffer some piston slap when the engine is cold on all forged setups.

I know that JE psitons have been an issue on TSI motors because JE just don't seem to be able to get the piston correct for the TSI application. Many threads of Vortex proving this whereby guys have been through 2 or 3 sets and JE refuse the admit that there is an issue.

I sincerely doubt the likes of Backdraft Motorsport and IE selling an IE and JE rod piston combo if there are known issues, although in today's time anything is possible to make a quick buck.

9.5:1 comp ratio should be good even for a BT build, not loosing much low end power but still able to give the punch at the top. Can have a nice power band and not too laggy for daily use. Preferred bore would be 83mm, you want a nice fresh set of hone marks for the pistons to make a nice seat in.

Oil pump I would check and make sure everything is good there, give the system a good clean and make sure that there is no debris in the pickup or anything like that. I assume you aren't having any issues though with oil pressure. Maybe something to consider and test once the motor is built.

Personally if it was my money, I would go with a 9.5:1 comp ratio 83mm bore JE piston and IE H beam rod combo. Also if you can spec it make sure you get to use tool steel for the wrist pin.

Also I think Wossner only make a 9.2:1 comp ratio piston for the VW TFSI motors.

[DazzG_177]

JE Pistons I don't think will be that bad on a daily, you will obviously suffer some piston slap when the engine is cold on all forged setups.

I know that JE psitons have been an issue on TSI motors because JE just don't seem to be able to get the piston correct for the TSI application. Many threads of Vortex proving this whereby guys have been through 2 or 3 sets and JE refuse the admit that there is an issue.

I sincerely doubt the likes of Backdraft Motorsport and IE selling an IE and JE rod piston combo if there are known issues, although in today's time anything is possible to make a quick buck.

9.5:1 comp ratio should be good even for a BT build, not loosing much low end power but still able to give the punch at the top. Can have a nice power band and not too laggy for daily use. Preferred bore would be 83mm, you want a nice fresh set of hone marks for the pistons to make a nice seat in.

Oil pump I would check and make sure everything is good there, give the system a good clean and make sure that there is no debris in the pickup or anything like that. I assume you aren't having any issues though with oil pressure. Maybe something to consider and test once the motor is built.

Personally if it was my money, I would go with a 9.5:1 comp ratio 83mm bore JE piston and IE H beam rod combo. Also if you can spec it make sure you get to use tool steel for the wrist pin.

Also I think Wossner only make a 9.2:1 comp ratio piston for the VW TFSI motors.

I know on the TSI Platform plenty guys been having issues with JE pistons
I have no current issues with Oil pressure, just have been advised a few times to have that looked at.
I am leading towards the IE & JE combo at the moment, Wossner is also another but will look up that CR

[Solo786]

looking at the spec on the 83mm JE Piston when i do some math it doesnt look right to me.

When you increase the bore size you typically raise the CR so take the following into consideration:

Bore size 83mm
Stroke 92.8
Head cc 46
Piston Dome : -8.0cc
Gasket compressed thickness - 0.90mm
Deck height 0mm

You can use a formula if you like but i come out with a CR of 10.8:1

Also was witness to a friend go ahead and rebore his motor to 83mm and fit JE 9.5:1 pistons against my advice and the vehicle had endless timing pull even at stock boost levels..

thats my experience.. use it dont use it

[Dyl]

subscribed!!

[vdub caddy]

looking at the spec on the 83mm JE Piston when i do some math it doesnt look right to me.

When you increase the bore size you typically raise the CR so take the following into consideration:

Bore size 83mm
Stroke 92.8
Head cc 46
Piston Dome : -8.0cc
Gasket compressed thickness - 0.90mm
Deck height 0mm

You can use a formula if you like but i come out with a CR of 10.8:1

Also was witness to a friend go ahead and rebore his motor to 83mm and fit JE 9.5:1 pistons against my advice and the vehicle had endless timing pull even at stock boost levels..

thats my experience.. use it dont use it

I will not listen to you ever!

You drive a Porsche, what do you know about VWs?

[DazzG_177]

looking at the spec on the 83mm JE Piston when i do some math it doesnt look right to me.

When you increase the bore size you typically raise the CR so take the following into consideration:

Bore size 83mm
Stroke 92.8
Head cc 46
Piston Dome : -8.0cc
Gasket compressed thickness - 0.90mm
Deck height 0mm

You can use a formula if you like but i come out with a CR of 10.8:1

Also was witness to a friend go ahead and rebore his motor to 83mm and fit JE 9.5:1 pistons against my advice and the vehicle had endless timing pull even at stock boost levels..

thats my experience.. use it dont use it

I will not listen to you ever!

You drive a Porsche, what do you know about VWs?

LOL

Point taken Solo, I actually had no idea that CR raises when you increase bore size.
Is there even any advantages of increasing bore size?
What about the specs on the other pistons mentioned?
In the instance of a damaged cylinder wall what would you advise in this instance?
Hone or re-sleeve back to 82.5mm bore?

Sorry for all the questions here

[Solo786]

The degree of damage the bore has would be the deciding factor here..

Slight scuffs etc maybe honed and you can get away, but anything worse you'd be better off re-sleeving to 82.5mm
The only advantage to increasing the bore size is that you gain more displacement which would equate to more power. However if you cannot retain the same/similar CR of around 9.5 - 9.8:1 and you end up higher then your tune would need to be customized for new timing values as well as knock detection values as a lot alters when the CR is changed significantly

There are Mahle PowerPak forged pistons available off shelf for 2.0TFSI in 83mm and 83.5mm both have -8.0cc dome volume -same as JE. Loba sells a custom order Mahle piston in 82.5mm but im unsure of the specs

Wossner has pistons in 82.5mm with a dome volume of -5cc -but these look like the AXX piston with the 'horns' - Locally many guys have had success with these.

[DazzG_177]

The degree of damage the bore has would be the deciding factor here..

Slight scuffs etc maybe honed and you can get away, but anything worse you'd be better off re-sleeving to 82.5mm
The only advantage to increasing the bore size is that you gain more displacement which would equate to more power. However if you cannot retain the same/similar CR of around 9.5 - 9.8:1 and you end up higher then your tune would need to be customized for new timing values as well as knock detection values as a lot alters when the CR is changed significantly

There are Mahle PowerPak forged pistons available off shelf for 2.0TFSI in 83mm and 83.5mm both have -8.0cc dome volume -same as JE. Loba sells a custom order Mahle piston in 82.5mm but im unsure of the specs

Wossner has pistons in 82.5mm with a dome volume of -5cc -but these look like the AXX piston with the 'horns' - Locally many guys have had success with these.

And that is what I am worried about, the idea is to have lower CR not higher and not to increase displacement either.
Then going through the headache of getting a new tune etc.

What are the disadvantages of re-sleeving thou?

[Solo786]

no disadvantage really - you just want to make sure a competent engineer has done it and quality sleeves used

[Killerwatt]

.... vehicle had endless timing pull even at stock boost levels..

I was just gona mention this. Not too many tuners that can compensate for the forged pistons.
Knock senors hear a new noise, ecu thinks its detonation and timing pull galore...

I would rather use oversized, unforged pistons solely to avoid this issue. If your tune is good then the pistons will survive just fine.

[Solo786]

agree with you there, but whats happening on TFSI with high boost (2bar+) is that the stock pistons ring lands collapse/break and then well..you're back at square one..

[DazzG_177]

agree with you there, but whats happening on TFSI with high boost (2bar+) is that the stock pistons ring lands collapse/break and then well..you're back at square one..

[Killerwatt]

Aah crap, did not know that.
Wonder if there is another oem piston with ring lands a bit lower down.

[Hotdubz]

what are the sock internals good for? HP and nM.

[Solo786]

the rods seem to be okay so far around 600nm

To be on the safe side of things i would say stick to 600nm or under and 250wkw

[vdub caddy]

the rods seem to be okay so far around 600nm

To be on the safe side of things i would say stick to 600nm or under and 250wkw

Dazz is way past this mark already.

Solo, heard of any success locally of guys using the Mahle PowerPack pistons?

[DazzG_177]

the rods seem to be okay so far around 600nm

To be on the safe side of things i would say stick to 600nm or under and 250wkw

Dazz is way past this mark already.

Solo, heard of any success locally of guys using the Mahle PowerPack pistons?

Seems like we know what the problem was now

[vdub caddy]

the rods seem to be okay so far around 600nm

To be on the safe side of things i would say stick to 600nm or under and 250wkw

Dazz is way past this mark already.

Solo, heard of any success locally of guys using the Mahle PowerPack pistons?

Seems like we know what the problem was now

[Solo786]

Yeah I saw what power dazz was making at stealth.. insane!

The more these motors are pushed to the limit the more you will find areas that need improvement.. other than that its a damn strong motor to build on.

[Dyl]

Dazz ima stay close on this thread as I wana go this route as well bud.
maybe we can feed off and help each other getting the "best" combo for our motors.

solo thanks for the informative posts bud, def learning a lot here.

my only issue is finding out which cdl motor I have as some of the R's had a different sized gudgeon pins (excuse my spelling)

I don't know any way to tell this without removing head.

[vdub caddy]

Dazz ima stay close on this thread as I wana go this route as well bud.
maybe we can feed off and help each other getting the "best" combo for our motors.

solo thanks for the informative posts bud, def learning a lot here.

my only issue is finding out which cdl motor I have as some of the R's had a different sized gudgeon pins (excuse my spelling)

I don't know any way to tell this without removing head.

Dammit Dyl, that sucks.

I guess the only way to tell would be to open the block and pull the pistons.

[Solo786]

Rather do rods and pistons at once guys. Saves hassles for later on. Also then there's no need to worry about wrist pin size as the rod and piston you buy can be matched

[vwpro]

Hey guys

Just would like to hear some views & opinions on others who have have been through this exercise.
Rebuilding one of the above engines while keeping stock K04 (MAYBE gtx later)
What Rod & Piston combination would you use and why?
CR would most likely be 10:5.1 or 9:5.1
82.5mm or 83mm bore?
JE, Mahle, Wossner or Wiesco Pistons?
Would the oil pump need to be replaced or inspected as well?

Reason I ask is I am hearing too many different views on more specifically the pistons.
I know OEM are semi forged Mahle on the BWJ, BHZ & CDL.
JE are not daily friendly more so a race application and you would have to be worried with clearance issues with piston expansion?
Mahle are good but expensive?
Wossner are the preferred 'drop in' solution?

ARP Bolts, Calico bearings etc the rest of it is a given just the above I would like to shed some more light and hopefully others can learn as well.

just don`t use SportTech valve train, seen acouple failures, use Ferrea valve or if you can get, "Sinus" snake skin valves. google same
make contact with this guy,he got the correct parts you can use.

http://www.streetracing.co.za/forum/vie ... f=4&t=9223

[Porra46]

In for updates as well...

Also thinking of getting a stronger bottom end fitted. So far the best reviews and finds seem to be a stronger Mahle piston. Rod options seem to be the natching Mahle or a set from IE.

Would like more feedback from others that have done it locally. And not racecars. Daily drives that race their cars occassionally.